Parliamentary Standards Bill

My Lords, it is a rum old business when the other place relies on this place, is it not? I suggest respectfully that in future if Members of the other place want to vote then they should vote. The noble Lord raised the issue of MPs and outside interests, as have many other noble Lords this evening, including the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. Nothing in this Bill prevents a Member of Parliament having an outside interest but it does stipulate that those interests must be registered, as they are at present, in order that there is no ambiguity about an MP’s motives for raising an issue when he or she is in the Chamber. I personally think that is absolutely right. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for confirming the intense nature of the cross-party talks. There has been much discussion this evening, or much innuendo, about the cross-party agreements and this, that and the other. There were intensive discussions between the parties and I believe that they were very fruitful. The Bill that we have before us, with all its imperfections, is the result of those cross-party talks. I am now going to deal up front with the sunset clause, which was first raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, and then by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and others. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, has either tabled, or is going to table, an amendment asking that there be a sunset clause. I think it would be improper for there to be a sunset clause which covered the whole of the Bill. It would be difficult to set up a new authority to advertise for people to be employed by this new authority without giving them security of employment and, indeed, without allowing this authority to start its work. I recognise however that some clauses could, and perhaps should, be revisited in a period of perhaps two years. I therefore suggest that we come back to this in Committee, but I do not think the Government would be opposed to reviewing some aspects of the Bill in a couple of years. The noble Lord raised the pay of MPs. Of course I should clarify that this Bill will not alter the existing arrangements for sitting MPs’ pay. It is determined by the SSRB and approved by the Commons, and IPSA will only administer the payment of salaries. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, who I know cannot be in his place, and many other noble Lords suggested that the Bill was premature and that we should wait until Sir Christopher Kelly and his committee had reported. I stress again that this Bill provides a structural framework. Sir Christopher and his committee will provide the substance, and I believe it is entirely appropriate that the authority should be set up, with the chair and committee being appointed, while we await the report from Sir Christopher. As I said in my opening remarks, I believe that this is important for Members of the other place now and it is vital that everything is up and running and embedded before the next election so that the MPs who are elected to the next Parliament can get on with their work without having any more of these arguments and discussions about pay and allowances. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and many others, including the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, asked whether the Bill would upset the balance between the courts and Parliament. We do not believe that the Bill is incompatible with Article 9 of the Bill of Rights. It makes no specific provision to disapply Article 9 and will not change the relationship between Parliament and the courts. A court faced with a judicial review of IPSA functions would not be able to consider proceedings in Parliament, as that would not be possible under Article 9. Many noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, asked why we should create a separate criminal offence in respect of allowances applicable just to MPs when we already have a criminal offence that would apply. Providing false information on a claim under the allowances scheme could amount to conduct already caught by an existing offence—that is, fraud by false representation under the Fraud Act 2006. However, this would be dependent on whether the elements of this offence were made out. A prosecution for fraud requires additional proof beyond reasonable doubt of dishonest intent and proof that the purpose was to make a financial gain. Fraud is a more serious offence which carries a greater maximum penalty than that envisaged in the Bill, which, as many noble Lords have said, requires only knowingly providing false information. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, says and I note the amendments that he has tabled. Before Committee, I shall certainly reflect on his suggestion to get rid of the whole of Clause 8. However, of course I cannot make any concessions here at the Dispatch Box and it would not be right for me to do so. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Goodlad, for his excellent reports. They have of course caused me and the Government enormous problems but I still believe that they are excellent. I especially pay tribute to his report on fast-tracked legislation, which I hope will guide us in the future. Of course, I disagree with his view that the Bill will not enhance public support. I believe that it will because the public are frustrated with what is going on and they do not understand the niceties of our debates and our scrutiny. They want good legislation but they want action, and this Bill provides us with that. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, for earlier giving me a copy of his document written in 2000. I always listen to him very carefully due to his vast experience, and I wholeheartedly agree that Members of both the Commons and the Lords should give obedience to the unenforceable. However, that has patently not been happening, and that is why we have this Bill before us. My noble friend Lord Peston and others referred to the Statement of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice. In his concluding remarks, the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, also went back to the question of whether the Bill would ever be applicable to the Lords. Again, I categorically state that this Bill will not be used as a model for your Lordships’ House, and there is no intention of this or any similar Bill applying to this House. We will not apply this legislation to this House. Having said that, I add that what I say at this Dispatch Box cannot bind future Parliaments, but that is the view of this Government. I am being honest with your Lordships. My noble friend Lord Peston referred to the Constitution Committee’s reports, which, as I said, are excellent. He, like the committee, suggested that the Bill should not be fast-tracked and he referred to deals and stitch-ups. As I said, there were no deals; the position arrived at was consensual.