Parliamentary Standards Bill

My Lords, my noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden, with his characteristic felicity of expression, referred to the deft footwork of the noble Baroness in her opening speech. How right he was. Indeed, it reminded me of a phrase in that memorable wartime song, "A nightingale sang in Berkeley Square": ""the nimble tread of the feet of Fred Astaire"." My noble friend Lord MacGregor set a marvellous standard for the rest of the debate, effectively opening it for our side. He does not speak often in your Lordships’ House these days, but as a Cabinet Minister in another place he spoke frequently. It was quite obvious to those who listened to him in those days that he has lost none of his oratorical skills. I return to the noble Baroness’s nimble tread. She said two things which I regard as germane to the issues in front of us. First of all, she said that there are no circumstances in which this Bill will affect the House of Lords—despite the remarks made at an earlier stage by the right honourable gentlemen the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Justice. However, as my noble friend Lord Crickhowell and the noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, observed, does her statement also mean that the Bill will not be used as a model for your Lordships’ House? I hope that the noble Baroness will deal with that matter in her reply; but I should say now that if it is to be made a model for what is to come to your Lordships’ House, that underlines even more heavily the importance of the quality of scrutiny we give to the Bill. The noble Baroness also said that we have a responsibility to let the other place have the Bill it wants. A number of your Lordships have commented on that statement. I wish also to say a few words about it. My first observation is: has the other place had a proper opportunity to find out what it really wants, given the time that was accorded to its debates? Secondly, as a number of your Lordships said—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong—this is future legislation. We are constitutionally a part of the legislative process. We have to take into account the interests, not just of another place but of Parliament. Therefore, it is perfectly right that we give the Bill proper scrutiny, particularly given that it affects many fundamental principles that go to the heart of our constitutional arrangements. However, perhaps as good a reason as any for our dealing with this Bill is that it has come to your Lordships’ House in what has been described by more than one Member of another place "as a mess". As a consequence of the removal of two crucial clauses—Clauses 6 and 10—many of the provisions make no sense at all. We, in a sense, are trustees for the clarity of the Bill, as well as its content. Many of your Lordships have talked about the process. I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Goodlad for the extraordinary speed with which his committee has produced two excellent reports, both of which have made some excoriating remarks about the way that this matter has been handled. The noble Baroness quite rightly drew our attention to the public anger about the question of allowances and expenses in another place. She was quite right in saying that this needs a prompt response. However, I discern from the debate that there is a deep division about what the character of that response should be. We have one kind of response in the Bill—which is IPSA and all the panoply of a statutorily independent body—but, on the other hand, other solutions have been proposed. The noble Lord, Lord Neill of Bladen, presented a perfectly plausible alternative for dealing with this matter. Moreover, as my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth said, what is here as regards the expenses arrangement is simply a framework. What will be poured into that framework depends on an entirely different body, quite outside your Lordships’ House, which is the Committee on Standards in Public Life. Until we know what its recommendations are, which we will not get until the autumn, we will not know to what use this framework will be put. That went to the core of what my noble friend Lord Norton was saying. The other part of the Bill, with respect, does not merit urgent treatment—the question of financial interests. That is the part of the Bill that concerns the Opposition the most. There is no evidence that the question of financial interests needs urgent treatment. There was a crisis in the other place in the mid-1990s, which is best encapsulated in the words "brown envelopes". We recently had our own difficulties, as your Lordships will recall. In my submission, both those issues were handled extremely well by the internal arrangements of both Houses. I should be very surprised if we have similar crises of that sort in the foreseeable future. Both in another place and in your Lordships’ House the internal procedures were wholly adequate to deal with these matters. Moreover, the kind of arrangements on the face of the Bill, with respect to financial interests, will worsen the problems, as was so brilliantly described by my noble and learned friend Lord Howe of Aberavon as well as by other noble friends and other noble Lords. We have been concerned in your Lordships’ House for a very long time about the increasing professionalism of another place. We have been concerned, as my noble friend Lord MacGregor said, about the decreasing number of Members of another place who have skills outside the purely political ones. The provisions in this Bill will worsen that situation profoundly, and for that reason are wholly misplaced.