Parliamentary Standards Bill

My Lords, to me, as the 21st speaker in this debate, it seems a long time since we heard the first presentation by the noble Baroness the Leader of the House. However, before I comment briefly on the Bill and pose some questions, I thank her for her presentation of the real situation in which we find ourselves and of why, as she says, the House of Commons needs this Bill. I understand the overall situation. I am also grateful to her for her quite definitive statement of the non-application of provisions similar to this Bill to the House of Lords—although this Bill does not apply to us. That is a very important statement, as it effectively negates earlier statements made by Ministers in recent days, which is important for us in this House. When I was in the Army, in the Royal Signals, we spent a lot of time repairing equipment and trying to make it as good as new. Then the great day came when we were told that if the product was bust we should simply scrap it and replace it with a new model. I believe that in the present circumstances and in the light of public reaction, the Bill follows the second course, as the intention is to make a really substantive change, as well as to establish a new independent authority to pay the salaries and allowances of Members of the House of Commons, to prepare their allowances scheme and a code relating to their financial interests. I have great sympathy with a recent point made by the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth. The people are not concerned so much with the creation of some new body as about the existence of the allowance scheme in itself. That is a very important point, and one that we need to concentrate on. In view of the importance in our political system of the need for Parliament not to cede its powers either to the Government or to another body, one might have hoped that the House of Commons would keep the final control of the allowance scheme to itself. In the present circumstances, I see that is very difficult. However, I note that the code of conduct relating to financial interests to be prepared by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority does not come into effect until approved by a resolution of the House of Commons. That remaining element of parliamentary control is to be welcomed in that matter. I have a number of questions. In the debate so far, everyone has expressed an opinion, mostly very strongly, and we have had a whole range of quotations from important committees. In my intervention, I want to pose specific questions to the Government, because what I am interested in is their reaction to these points. We may be very unhappy, but I want to know what they think about them. First, of course, is the important point about parliamentary privilege. The situation is not the same as it was when the Bill went into the other House. There has been a substantive change in the removal of important clauses from the Bill, including the one headed "Proceedings in the House of Commons", which was removed without a vote on the amendments but in a vote in the other House. The clause then vanished. It was a rather curious vote, as there was a majority of three and a former Home Secretary and a former Foreign Secretary voted against the Government on that occasion. If you do the mathematics, you can see that it was rather a curious result—but, as the Australians say, "Good on them". None the less, despite the non-existence of that clause from the original draft, subsequent to that we have the note from the Clerk of the Parliaments—and I am not referring to Dr Jack from the other House. It says that, ""the juxtaposition of the statutory provisions on paid advocacy contained in the Bill (which will of course be subject to judicial oversight) with the codes covering declaration adopted by the two Houses, which are omitted from the Bill … could erode the protection offered by Article IX"—" that is, the famous Article IX of the Bill of Rights. I know that the Government may find a way around that, but I pose the question to the Leader of the House: what is her reaction to that in relation to the question of parliamentary privilege? The second point, the House will be delighted to hear, has not been raised before—so there is one other thing in this Bill that noble Lords will be able to complain about. We understand that the decision to create the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations was principally because it would avoid the risk that the independent authority might be judge and jury in its own case. That seems quite reasonable, but there are still elements that we need to look at. I ask the Leader of the House to say whether she is satisfied that there will be a clear division between the independent authority and the Commissioner for Parliamentary Investigations and that the activity of the independent authority will clearly take account of those points. I turn to one separate point on this, which is not in the main part of the Bill but in the schedule to the Bill, in paragraph 17(2), which states that: ""So far as possible the IPSA’s administration functions and its regulation functions must be carried out separately, so that one set of functions does not adversely affect the carrying out of the other"." I do not want to make too much of this point, but the phrase "so far as possible" is not very encouraging. It is very important that we should have a proper differentiation of functions in the new proposals. Thirdly—and this is the most important point that I come on to—there is the question of the extent to which the Bill introduces dangerous proposals that would affect relations between Parliament and the courts. For me, that is the most important point. Will the Leader of the House comment on that specifically? In the text of Clause 7(6), there is written, ""otherwise, is not to have any legal effect"." That is interestingly written, but it is not really the point. The point is that, as indicated by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, some elements in this Bill could very easily end up in the courts. He made clear, and I agree, that some of the actions of the independent authority and the commissioner could be covered by that statement—in particular Clause 6(3), which he quoted. That is quite possible, and it is a matter that concerns me. The differentiation of the responsibilities between Parliament and the courts is something to which we need to give attention and respect and not to overtarget in an incidental manner in some other proposal. That is my third point. Very briefly, I repeat, what about parliamentary privilege, what about the extent to which the independent authority and the commissioner divide their work and what about—a key issue raised by so many Members—relations between Parliament and the courts?