Parliamentary Standards Bill

I am grateful for the opportunity to follow the shadow Leader of the House. He reads the same newspapers as I do, and he referred to the letter in The Times last week that noted that under the Theft Act 1968 one receives a 10-year sentence, rather than the one-year term that might be set down in our Bill. The Justice Secretary has pointed out, however, that there will be a new offence and that there is a difference between "knowingly" and "dishonestly". We lawyers understand perfectly well that there is a difference. The shadow Leader of the House also mentioned the Bill's principles, which I fully support and always have supported. I refer simply to something that I learned many years ago from Ernie Marples, a former Conservative Minister for Transport, who said that a time of crisis is a time of opportunity. A crisis has certainly engulfed the House in relation to the public's perception. There is a phenomenon among the public, in that everyone seems to relate to Members' expenses. I have an aunt in Newcastle who is 92 years old, and when her son visits her from Spain she does not ask how he is, how the children are or how the journey was; instead, she says, "I cannot get a communal garden seat, but those MPs…" And so it goes on up and down the land. We created a crisis and the Bill is dealing with it. The shadow Leader of the House said that there was a low opinion of politicians; I have to tell him that in 1974 we were behind estate agents in such popularity stakes. We have not moved very far since then, so it is not true that Members have ever been popular in our land. However, we are certainly more unpopular now. I am glad to see the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) still in his seat. He, the hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Tyrie), who made an intervention, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) were all concerned about salaries and whether they were also part of the Bill. I read a number of briefing notes on the Bill, and I was under the impression that, should the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority ask the Senior Salaries Review Body for a recommendation on salaries after a review, the issue would fall within the same category as expenses and, as the Justice Secretary has said, be laid before the House without a vote. If that is to be the case, it will be the first time since 1971 that MPs' salaries as recommended by the SSRB have been approved. The late Sir Edward Heath did so, but since 1975, when the Leader of the House was Michael Foot, no Prime Minister or Government—through the Thatcher, Major and Blair years—have ever accepted a recommendation from the SSRB. That has given us the current disequilibrium between allowances and salaries, so I hope that, in the future, salaries, like allowances, will be covered by IPSA. My hon. Friend the Member for North-East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel) said in her intervention that we should listen to the public. I think that, through this Bill, the Kelly recommendations on MPs' allowances and the four-year review of all our expenses and allowances, which will begin very soon and is being carried out by independent auditors, we are listening to the public. I think that it was the shadow Leader of the House who had the good fortune, or the misfortune, to mention The Daily Telegraph, and I repeat what I said at the time: it is a matter of great regret that a CD-ROM was stolen from the House, that it was bought for a tremendous amount of money—possibly £250,000—and that it led to the revelations that came to the public's attention. Voltaire once said, however, that out of some ill, some good can come, and the good that has come out of the revelations is the Kelly review, the Bill and our review of four years' expenses and allowances. So, when people ask, "Why the rush with the Bill? Why the haste?", I answer that the haste is to respond to the public's opinion, which we created. We have created a terrible public opinion of this House, and the House as an institution, as well as its Members, must respond. That is what we are doing today. Sir Christopher Kelly has been mentioned on a few occasions, and those who have given evidence include the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who gave evidence today, and myself. I gave evidence last week, just before the Bill's First Reading, and I tried to explain to the committee, and I think that it understood, that IPSA is not being set up as another quango. It will separate the work of the Fees Office from Members. I repeat on the Floor of the House what I said to the committee: an incestuous relationship had developed between Members and the Fees Office. Many people—the Justice Secretary, the shadow Leader of the House and my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead—have said that the Fees Office does a sterling job. No one is criticising members of the Fees Office; we are all responsible, because, over the years, we right hon. and hon. Members have made our claims and they have responded. They tried to help us. When the difficulties arose with the media, Members said, "Well, it was agreed by the Fees Office," and the Fees Office said, "You are hon. Members," and the relationship became rather unstable, leading us into our current situation. The hon. Member for East Devon (Mr. Swire) referred to the Committee on Standards in Public Life, and to whether the Justice Secretary had referred the Bill to the that committee's chairman. I have to say, again, that the Bill is entirely separate from the work of the Kelly committee. We are still a sovereign Parliament for a sovereign people, and it is up to us in this House to set the framework. Within that framework, the Kelly committee can respond and give us its recommendations, but it is up to this House to approve or not to approve those resolutions. All three main party leaders have said that they will support them when the time comes. We hope and expect them to be appropriate; we expect them to be transparent and to take into account the public interest; and, therefore, we hope that we are in the process of supporting them. The reason why I think so many of us have given evidence to the committee, notwithstanding the point that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) made about his wife and two others not being able to sit on it at this time, is that we are there to educate the committee, to tell it about the feelings of the House and of Members and to explain to it the things that we think are significant to this House. It is a two-way process with the Kelly committee, and I had no difficulties with my evidence and the evidence that others in the House gave last week. The shadow Leader of the House said that if we get the Bill wrong we can always reverse it. The Justice Secretary said that we got the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991 wrong—possibly—but we have not amended it. This House is sovereign, and if the Bill is not right there will be time to change it; but we have three days for consideration, which is quite a period in which to discuss the Bill not only on Second Reading but in Committee. It is therefore up to this House, as it is doing tonight, to hold the Executive to account—it is a Government Bill—and to press, probe and see whether there is a response. Up to now, the Justice Secretary has responded. He has listened carefully to Members, and he is still listening. We are in listening mode. This is a matter for the House of Commons. This is about how we put to the people of our country a new framework for dealing with our expenses and allowances through an alternative fees office, and to get rid of a cosy, incestuous relationship. We must be careful, however, not to show a kind of parliamentary drag—some Members still say, "We should be in charge of our salaries, expenses and allowances; we should not give them to a quango." Those days are over, as any of us who speaks to the public will know. We have ceded our authority on such issues, and we should accept that; I hope that all in the House fully accept it. The hon. Member for Louth and Horncastle (Sir Peter Tapsell) referred to the Kelly committee, and I refer to it again now. The Secretary of State went through the various stages of reform that the House has seen over many years. During my years in opposition, the noble Lady Thatcher never reformed the House of Commons. She reformed many things, including the judiciary and the legal profession, but she never touched the House. Now we are reforming the House—in the interests not of MPs, but of the people of our country. The Secretary of State is perfectly right not to extend measures to the House of Lords at this time. Many years ago, Richard Crossman wanted to reform the House of Lords. He saw the then Leader of the Opposition, Edward Heath, and made his reform dependent on reform of the Commons—but we never got reform of the Commons or the Lords. If we wait for the House of Lords to come on board, we will never get the reform here. It is important that we reform here first; the House of Lords can follow. I am sure that it would wish to, for the sake of its reputation. I fully support the Bill. I have argued for it; I have argued for the Fees Office to be independent from Members of Parliament. I cast no aspersions over members of the Fees Office and how they work and have helped us over the years, but it is in their and our interests that the separation should take place. I echo the words of the Prime Minister himself. He said that the Bill will end the system of self-regulation and that we would have independent statutory regulation. He went on:""That will mean the immediate creation of a new Parliamentary Standards Authority, which will have delegated power to regulate the system of allowances. No more can Westminster operate in ways reminiscent of the last century, whereby Members make up the rules and operate them among themselves.""The proposed new authority would take over the role of the Fees Office in authorising Members' claims, oversee the new allowance system, following proposals from the Committee on Standards in Public Life, maintain the Register of Members' Interests, and disallow claims, require repayment and apply firm and appropriate sanctions in cases of financial irregularity."—[Official Report, 10 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 796.]" The Bill is a major step forward in restoring the reputation of the House and in carrying the institution forward. It is the institution that has suffered, although Members of Parliament might be severely damaged in their constituencies. I give the Bill my full support, because I want the reputation of the House to be restored.