Health Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am not going to repeat a word of what was said by the noble Earl, my colleague on the Front Bench, other than to agree totally with every word, and to hope that your Lordships have listened carefully to his contribution. I want to concentrate on one point—the cost of implementing the clause. I had the privilege of serving on the Grand Committee. On 9 March at col. GC 394, the noble Baroness made it clear to the Committee, as was entirely appropriate, that she had been chair of the All-Party Retail Group before joining the Government and had worked for the Co-op. She went on to explain that the cost for the change was minimal and would be: ""15 Canadian dollars—around £8.40—per square foot of display covered".—[Official Report, 9/3/09; col. GC 395.]" In other words, that is £120. The convenience stores viewed that figure with some incredulity. Furthermore, we on the Committee wondered why on earth anybody would take a quotation from a Canadian company when of course the change would have to be done in the UK. Noble Lords have had representations from a large number of stores indicating that in their judgment the costs would be £1,500 to £2,000. We have on the record what the Minister said, and I think most noble Lords—certainly those of us who took part in the Grand Committee—will have received a letter dated 23 April from the Department of Health headed "Frequently asked questions". Question 2 says that it is going to cost retailers thousands of pounds to remove displays. The Minister, in this case the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, signs this letter, which states: ""Removing displays need not be costly—in Canada, even professional covers cost as little as £120 for an area measuring 1 metre by 1.3 metres"," et cetera. I was amazed to read—I hope the Minister is able to answer on this point—in the Evening Standard of 1 May that: ""The Ministry of Health asked anti-smoking organisation ASH (which is hardly a disinterested party)"—" hear, hear— ""to check on the cost, and it claimed the figure for the gantries was just £120. This figure was sent by health minister Lord Darzi to every member"," of your Lordships’ House. However, all of a sudden, 4 Solutions in Canada woke up to what is happening. It has issued a statement pointing out that the individual costs would be approximately £480—roughly speaking, four times the cost cited by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, who has experience of this world. She is a former retailer herself and knows all about the retail world. Furthermore, 4 Solutions went on to say that the figure, ""did not include any of the insulation costs, which would be around £1000. They also pointed out the costs of the gantries for all the outlets in Britain could be over £30 million"." That is a huge difference from what the Grand Committee was told. It was on the basis of what the Grand Committee was told that we have the clause before us. My question to the Minister is: was she totally misled by 4 Solutions, was she totally misled by ASH, or has she in effect totally misled the House? This is a serious point, as my noble friend on the Front Bench rightly pointed out. Here we are in a recession: 50,000 outlets have been affected by one of the key footfall creators, and the Government are facing costs not of £120 to implement the Bill but possibly the best part of £2,000, which comes out of their net profit. It is not a turnover point but a net profit. We are talking about a substantial amount of turnover to provide the figure. I hope that the noble Baroness has a good answer to this point. I am making a serious challenge to her. I am not alleging that she has misled the House, but I hope she has a good answer on whether the figure is £120 or closer to £2,000.