Planning Bill

My Lords, we all have a sense of déjà vu and frustration about this. The noble Lord has pursued the matter assiduously and I wish that I had a solution, because it will become increasingly clear that, for different reasons, I do not. I will address the amendments in turn. The noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, wishes the Bill to include reference to the council in Clause 1. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, ingeniously suggest a way of improving the terminology. I have tabled a number of amendments in response to concerns raised in Committee about the scope of the power of the chair to end a commissioner’s appointment to the council. The noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, has consistently raised concerns, both here and in discussions outside the Chamber, that the first appearance of ““the Council”” is not until Clause 60. Our previous debates were to clarify the role of the council. I am pleased that we now know that it is not a superfluous body, but exists to do a very important job. As he said, several councils could sit at the same time. The noble Lord feels that, as the council takes decisions on nationally significant infrastructure projects under certain circumstances, it should be put up front in Clause 1. Our problem in doing so, and this is not a Jesuitical argument, is that such a clause would not follow the normal conventions of legislative drafting. We are afraid that it would lead to greater confusion about the role of the council, because the council is essentially part of the operational structure of the IPC. When we set up bodies such as this in legislation, detail on how it will operate is nearly always set out in the schedules. Schedule 1, which is about the IPC, is clearly referenced in Clause 1. It would not make sense to isolate the one activity represented by the council and put it in Clause 1, as the noble Lord suggests. It belongs in the schedule, because it is part of describing how the IPC will work. I am sorry to disappoint the noble Lord on that, but it is sensible to keep things as they are. I turn to Amendment No. 6, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. It was argued in Committee—the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has eloquently done so again—that the term ““council”” could cause confusion as a council is more generally understood to be a fixed body whereas, under the Bill, the council will instead be a more fluid body for different purposes. I fully understand that. The terminology of the Bill was very much an issue for debate at earlier stages. It was felt that ““the Council”” was still the best expression for the IPC. ““Committee””, another obvious candidate, was considered, but it was felt that it might cause confusion with the panels of the IPC, which people might see as being committees of the commission—the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, picked up that point previously. Using ““council”” therefore seemed to solve the problem. It may not be perfect. We have thought very hard about it and I have shared my concerns with noble Lords. We looked at the possibility of replacing the terms in the Bill—replacing ““Council”” with ““Committee””—but it would have generated well in excess of 70 amendments, which we felt was inappropriate at this stage. The noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee—bless her heart—has ingeniously proposed a different solution, by providing that the IPC and Secretary of State could agree to call the council by a different title if they so chose. The IPC and Secretary of State can agree to do that without provision in the Bill. While I am very grateful for her helpful suggestion, I am genuinely frustrated that the proposal is unworkable, because paragraph 6(1) of Schedule 1 provides that: "““There is to be a body of Commissioners to be known as the … Council””." The effect of Amendment No. 6 would be that, while the Secretary of State and the IPC might agree to call the body something else, in strict legal terms it would continue to be the council. It would therefore not require third parties to call it by a different name; as a matter of law, it would continue to be the council. That would have the strange result that the Secretary of State and the commission could call the body something different from everybody else. One can only imagine the confusion, for example, if—God forbid—there were an application for judicial review of an IPC decision. The parties to the proceedings could call the council by the different name agreed by the Secretary of State and the commission, but the courts would be required to follow the legal interpretation. An already complicated situation would become rather confused; it would make the perception of the role of the council even more complicated. We have thought about this, and we have come up with a solution that I hope will provide some reassurance. Ministers will now set out the purpose of the council very clearly in guidance under the Bill, and will ensure that information on the IPC’s procedures and structures is widely available, such as on the IPC’s website. We will explain the terminology and ensure that people understand that this is a fluid concept. In fact, it will be explained by its functions, and putting it in guidance will ultimately be the most practicable thing to do. I can see that that may not satisfy noble Lords, but it will in effect address the problem and will not cause the complications which the solutions so generously offered in the amendments would bring. I hope that I turn to a happier note, with our Amendments Nos. 7 to 15, which respond to concerns raised in Committee that the chair of the commission has too wide a scope to remove ordinary members from the council. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, was particularly concerned that there was potential for abuse of that power and that people who might be a thorn in the flesh would be too easy to remove. As debated in Committee, our aim is that the council will be a fluid body. We want to provide the chair with the flexibility to change the council to meet different circumstances and challenges, so we need to provide that the chair can employ the right range of skills for each particular issue that comes before the council. I have looked carefully at what the noble Lord has said and agree that he has raised some important points, and therefore we have put some safeguards in place. The government amendments require that before exercising the power to end the appointment of a commissioner who is an ordinary member of the council, the chair or, if delegated, a deputy chair, must first consult and have regard to the views of the other relevant members of the council, the chief executive and any other commissioner that the chair or deputy chair thinks it appropriate to consult. This means that at least six people—the chief executive and minimum five members of the council—must be consulted before any decision is made to end an appointment of an ordinary member of the council. This builds on the provisions set out at paragraph 9 of Schedule 1, which currently apply when making a new appointment to the council. I think that the noble Lord has said that he feels that those proposals meet his point. I hope that they do. As I say, they are intended only to allow the chair to be as flexible as possible, with the resources available to them.