Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, that was quite an interesting dialogue. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, had a good run at explaining exactly how we have been involved in detailed consultation, which, as I have said, I like to try to be. I am not sure that it helps to say when certain things were given, certain things were changed and other things were done, because that is part of life when one is consulting. It may lead one not to consult, which would be a bit unfortunate because consultation is clearly very important. Phrases such as ““caved in”” are not very helpful, either. I should like to think that I listen to debates in this Chamber and then consult people. A number of noble Lords have asked why the Crown Prosecution Service, the police and the Crown prosecutor said all these things. I have not only asked them but have taken other advice. I have talked to a number of other senior judges about this, and it is by no means clear cut. Indeed, a number of them, rather like the Crown Prosecution Service, are nervous about the direction in which we are going. They feel that we should not move towards a judge having a role in placing and directing questions in what should be the investigation stage of post-charge questioning. They genuinely feel that there is a real risk that this might lead us to go down the route of having examining magistrates, as France has. This is finely balanced, as a number of noble Lords have mentioned. Setting out the area of investigation, as the amendment does, allows the judge to take the right decisions and set broad parameters. We all know that people say amazing things sometimes when they are questioned. So, as the questioning goes ahead, to have to stop to ask for more permission and to open up all the potential in the case for this to be challenged by the defence later is very risky. Lots of safeguards are in place. The suspect has a right to legal representation throughout post-charge questioning. His man will be there. The solicitor will be present. He will stop abuse and will protect the interests of the defendant. The trial judge can refuse to admit any evidence that was obtained inappropriately. I do not believe that the police have any incentive to abuse their power, but in terms of the investigation and of protecting us, they have the opportunity to move quickly down a route when things come out suddenly during the questioning. It makes absolute sense to do that. On the PACE code issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, it is less detailed. With post-charge questioning now authorised by a judge, we do not need the parts of the code about police authorisation. The judge must consider the proximity of questioning to the trial, which he will do. Therefore, it will not impinge on the trial and will not move in that direction. I have touched on the practical problems that this amendment would raise and on the danger that the judge would become an examining magistrate, which I do not think will help. I believe that within the amendments there are protections to look after the person who is being questioned, but there are not the risks of these other things, which will not help justice. Certainly, we look after the individual and make sure that he is protected by having a solicitor and by the fact that the evidence could be inadmissible at the trial. Therefore, I should like my amendment to stand.