Counter-Terrorism Bill

My Lords, anyone who heard the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, would not be surprised that I strongly support the amendment. He generously referred to my paternity of it. In a display of equal generosity, I must acknowledge that the paternity is shared, because when I started in Northern Ireland in 1992, I picked up a recommendation of the noble Viscount, Lord Colville of Culross, who is in his place, that there should be independent monitoring of the three holding centres in Northern Ireland. In the middle of August that year I asked Sir Louis Blom-Cooper to undertake a task of that character, which he generously accepted. In December that year, I appointed him, and was able to do that administratively by announcing it in an Answer to a Written Question. I support the amendment, because it serves at least two desirable objectives. The first is the avoidance of any oppression or unfairness by police who are holding suspects of terrorist offences in exceptional circumstances. That has to be the first objective. The second objective is that the amendment would forestall, or go a very long way to forestalling, at a subsequent trial any bogus allegation raised to the effect that there had been unfairness in the rendering of a confession statement, which would be inadmissible evidence. In Northern Ireland, although the same is true here, such allegations were very common; one might even say that they were standard in terrorist centres. On each occasion it was necessary thereafter to try that issue in a trial within the trial, which for some reason that, I dare say, is familiar to lawyers in this House—although I have never got to the bottom of it—was known by its Norman French name of a voire dire. That could typically take as much as 20 days to determine, with evidence and counterevidence going back and forth, which held up the trial and added considerable expense. What was needed was some objective, impartial evidence to corroborate the evidence of the interrogating police which could not be gainsaid. There was strong judicial support for an innovation of that kind in Northern Ireland. That was why we went along the road that has been described. Sir Louis took on, and was assisted by, a deputy, Dr William Norris, who is a psychiatrist. Their terms of reference, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, said, are to a considerable extent replicated in this amendment. I spoke to Sir Louis today. The proof of the pudding is that he confirmed to me that after his appointment, for the eight years that he held the post in Northern Ireland, there was made no single complaint of impropriety having occurred in the course of interrogation in the centres, which would have led to a voire dire during the subsequent trial. Questioning or behaviour alleged to have taken place in the police car after an arrest remained a very different matter. However, the lack of complaints was an extraordinarily effective consequence of the innovation. Video and audio recording were introduced later, and we shall deal with those matters in a later amendment. In his first report, Sir Louis recommended video and audio recording—it was possible to include them some time later—which were a much better vehicle for securing justice in the context that I have described. I should perhaps have added a third beneficial objective: the reassurance of the public, who very properly are suspicious and anxious about the kind of powers that are necessarily conferred by the various anti-terrorism Acts. The public would be reassured that no unfairness characterised the detention of terrorism suspects before or after being charged in a detention centre, which, in England, is at Paddington Green. Annual reports were laid before Parliament. Anyone who knows Sir Louis Blom-Cooper will not be surprised to learn that they were extraordinarily detailed, balanced, fair, diligent and impressive. Sir Louis very quickly secured in a series of unannounced visits, sometimes at 2 am or 3 am, the confidence of all concerned in the administration of this aspect of justice. Therefore, there are sound reasons for following that precedent and I very much hope that the Minister will think again before he insists on opposing the amendment for the reasons mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd.