Pensions Bill

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, and the noble Baroness, Lady Turner, for their contributions to the debate. The noble Baroness appears to think that there are employers who will be happy to continue with defined benefit schemes. We always thought that the banks would carry on with their rather generous schemes, but I would surprised if boardrooms will be so comfortable going forward, given the ravages to their finances over recent weeks. The trend in the private sector is clear. Defined benefit will disappear and it is just a question of time, unless something can be done to make the liabilities more manageable for employers. Those liabilities are large, unpredictable and difficult for companies to absorb. That is just a fact; I cannot tell the noble Baroness this in more straightforward terms. It is what the employer and business community believes strongly, which is why the director-general of the CBI made a plea for companies to be set free to design something that they would be comfortable in persuading their workforce was an appropriate set of benefits. The Minister said that the Government are looking at their consultation on flexibility. Inevitably there are different views, because some people are clinging to the belief that defined benefit will be kept in place by doing nothing. That is simply not the case. This is a serious issue. It is a failing by the Government that they have not used this opportunity to do anything in the Bill to help defined benefit. The Bill drives further and further towards defined contribution; that is what it is all about. I deeply regret that the Government are taking that approach. However, I will not divide the House on the issue. The Government said that the amendments are technically deficient, but that is not the most important thing. I recognise that, if the Government set their face against flexibility, there will be none. The Government will be judged on their record on defined benefit schemes, as they should be. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.