Climate Change Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 223A: 223A: Clause 61, page 28, line 20, leave out subsection (2) The noble Lord said: My Lords, the amendment seeks to take out of the Bill the provision that there can be a maximum of only five pilots for the waste management provisions. This matter has raised eyebrows among everyone who has been involved in the discussions on this in Committee, in the House of Commons and outside Parliament. No one quite understands why the Government have come up with the figure of five. It has been suggested that it is because finance for only five has been made available in the Defra budget. We know that the finance is £4,500 over three years, unless it has changed from what the Minister told us in Committee. Surely, however, even that depends on the scale and size of the pilots; there could be 10 little pilots or five big ones. A pilot is defined as a waste collection authority taking part in the scheme. It has also been suggested, cynically, that only five local authorities may want to do it and that the Government cannot find any more. We will find out later when the Government make formal requests to the local authorities to put themselves forward. In Committee, we had long discussions about the nature of the pilots and the importance of having as many of the options and sub-options that the Government are putting forward piloted. We want genuine comparisons, so there must be a sack-based scheme, a volume-based scheme and a weight-based scheme, et cetera. The Government and Parliament would then have a proper basis on which to make decisions, which, as the Minister said, would be evidence-based. In addition to the different types of schemes, there are different types of areas. I shall not go through the long list of about a dozen that I rolled off in Committee. You do not have to think for long to realise that there are a large number of different collection authorities in different areas, and that the areas can differ in terms of the nature of housing, the local society, the local community and so on. The more that people discuss this, the more it seems to be understood that five collection authorities will make it very difficult. I want to call in evidence an excellent report published since the Committee stage by the House of Commons Communities and Local Government Select Committee, entitled, Refuse Collection: Waste Reduction Pilots, Sixth Report of Session 2007-08. Cynics might think that I agree with a great deal in it, and I do. It is clear that when these provisions go to the House of Commons there will be some very interesting and vigorous debates. Paragraph 7 of the report states: "““We do not believe that allowing only five of England’s waste collection authorities to introduce schemes, covering four different collection methods, in a mixture of rural and urban settings, and across the whole country, will provide significant additional evidence on which to judge whether all authorities should be able to offer such schemes””." That says what I was trying to say, but rather better. Paragraph 11 states: "““We repeat what we said six months ago: it is hard to see why any council will want to set up a complicated charging scheme that earns it no money and risks widespread public disapproval. The Government’s decision to seek only five councils appears to reflect the understandable reluctance of local authorities to do so””." That is the House of Commons committee being cynical. Paragraph 14 states: "““The decision to limit the number of schemes to just five, none starting before April 2009, all running for three years before Parliament is asked to decide on a national roll-out, means that financial incentive schemes will have no discernible effect on local authorities’ duty to meet European Union landfill diversion targets before penalties fall due in 2010 and 2013””." The Government may speed that up a little with their amendment on the rollout provisions. Finally, paragraph 27 states: "““The Government’s retreat has resulted in a messy compromise that achieves the worst of both worlds—maximum hostile media coverage for a set of pilot schemes that will have only limited impact before EU fines fall due in 2010 and 2013 … We recommend that the Government withdraw its financial incentive pilot proposals from the Climate Change Bill and reconsider devolving the power to introduce schemes to local authorities themselves””." That is pretty strong stuff, and is a bit stronger than I would say. I was quite surprised when I read it. Clearly, there will be some interesting discussions in the House of Commons. If that is what an all-party group of Members of Parliament is saying, surely the Government should be thinking seriously about whether they have got this figure of only five wrong. I would suggest that they have. I beg to move.