Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, because he has explained exactly the Government’s thinking on this; namely that it is the bank’s responsibility and the expectation will be that customers will go to the bank if they have a claim after 15 years and the resources have been transferred. The bank will have the information and will then be able to process the reclaim. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, who put these things in a pithy way. I have 25 pages of notes to describe what he has explained in a matter of seconds to the general delight of the House, and I am sure to the total satisfaction of the noble Baroness and the noble Lord. Perhaps there is a bit more in the argument that I need to address, but nevertheless I express my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for his clarity. I am sorry about the procedural lament. It seems to me that the Committee stage provides the basis for clarifying what the issues are. As we would expect, noble Lords opposite have done an absolutely excellent job in clarifying those issues and identifying the areas that they wish to pursue further. Here we are on Report with those issues having been identified, so I am not sure that we ought to lament the processes by which we are considering the Bill; far from it. They are eminently defensible, and the House generally agrees that the system works well. If the noble Lord thinks that the structure gives the Government an extraordinarily easy ride, let me say from this Dispatch Box that that is not what it feels like. In Committee, over four days, we were subject to very intensive scrutiny and to some very intelligent questions, as we would expect. Here we are on Report dealing with the digested wisdom of those issues and the areas in which there are still matters in dispute. I cannot think of a better way of processing legislation, and the House should take pride in that. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, for reminding the House that the Bill commands widespread support. It is a benign Bill, which has objectives to which we all subscribe, and therefore, within that framework, the noble Lord is right to seek justification for the way in which the Government have gone about achieving the ends of what—I emphasise—is still a private scheme. We will come on to those issues with rather greater sharpness later. Let me make the obvious point that we looked very closely at the arguments made by the noble Lord in Committee. After all, he drew on an illustration from another country that has put such a scheme into practice with considerable success. We are always eager to learn any valuable lessons from others who have trod the path before us. The Swiss account scheme largely related to historic accounts. It will be appreciated that many of the customers dealing with our scheme will still be alive. They may regard the fact that they hold an account as confidential and may object to the information being published. The noble Lord has got to face up to the issues of confidentiality, which I will emphasise in a few moments, and the extent to which the Government ought to tread carefully—or not—regarding those issues. We certainly looked at the points made by the noble Lord in Committee. We have sought to satisfy ourselves as to whether it would be right and appropriate under the terms of the scheme to make available the names of individual account holders whose money is transferred to the scheme after 15 years. We consulted a great deal on the level of publicity that there would be about the scheme and the steps that would be taken to reunite customers with their accounts. It will be appreciated on all sides that the concept of the scheme—even before it comes into legislative existence—has prompted very considerable activity. We welcome all constructive suggestions on how banks and building societies can be more proactive in reuniting customers with their assets. The one thing that unites us on all sides of the House is that the money belongs to someone and that it should be transferred only when that claim cannot be substantiated. Therefore, every reasonable effort should be made to reunite dormant accounts with their proper holders. However, our view remains, as we set out in the consultation in March 2007 and in our response to that consultation subsequently, that a publicly available register of dormant account holders’ names does carry inherent risks. There is the risk of identity theft and fraud. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton—I am sorry he is not in his place today—expressed anxiety about the potential risk of identity theft and fraud if account holders’ names were publicly available. He felt that there would be the risk of the list being exploited leading to false claims for repayment. We are wary of that risk, and we think that we are right to be so. Consumer protection is an important principle for the Government. We owe it to dormant account holders not to place them at a potential disadvantage compared with customers whose accounts have not been transferred to the fund and whose names would not be made public in this way. We need to be fair to customers of banks and building societies and treat them equitably. We have listened carefully to what the noble Lord said but we do not think that the amendments are necessary. The one-stop shop is evidence of the industry’s determination—the determination of banking and building society groups—to do their best to reunite customers with dormant accounts. The one-stop shop offering this facility to the public will be launched tomorrow. It will allow executors to search for lost accounts and to face any legacy income that may be due, including that due to the charitable sector, a point on which we have had representations. It remains questionable whether it is desirable for personal data to be transferred from banks to the reclaim fund. The prescribed scheme does not require that. There may be points of ultimate dispute and inquiry on which the reclaim fund cannot reach a judgement until it has additional information from the bank. We have made provision for that information to be available at that point. As a normal matter of course, however, we do not think that all names associated with dormant accounts should be made public in quite the way suggested by the noble Lord and which he indicated had obtained in other schemes in other countries. We must also take into account the fact that the information held by banks and building societies is currently regarded as confidential. Some holders of dormant accounts may not have any concerns about their identity being made public and may find it useful in enabling them to be reunited with their account or the accounts of deceased relatives. But of course there could be others who may not wish that information to be made public and who will have deposited their money on the assumption that it could not be made public. A requirement to publish personal details without their consent raises real issues of confidentiality. It might also raise human rights issues. The banks will transfer the money to the reclaim fund under the terms of their agency agreements and these flows will be independently verified and audited. They will not routinely transfer personal data but only, as I indicated, when it might be necessary. I do not see why a list of names would significantly benefit the individual. There appears to be little advantage in seeing one’s name or the names of one’s relatives in a list and then speculating whether this means that the money is owed or whether the name is a coincidence. It might lead to a wide range of speculative inquiries, a phenomenon which is not unknown when money has been unclaimed in other circumstances. It will also involve additional administrative costs; noble Lords opposite are always rightly concerned that we should keep administrative costs down. The Government are committed to a scheme that is cost-effective, which will help to ensure that there is public confidence in the scheme, that banks and building societies will participate fully and that resources are targeted where they are most needed, maximising the amount that is available for good causes. I hear what the noble Lord says; he wishes that he had been able significantly to redraft the Bill. Of course, that is his right. Nothing would have prevented him from redrafting the whole Bill if he had been absolutely determined to; I know of his assiduity in that respect. However, I hope that he recognises that the Government have reached their position on rational grounds. We have taken into account his proposals; we fully understand the motive behind his amendments. On this occasion, we merely say that we beg to differ. We stand by our scheme for the reasons that I have put forward. I hope that he will think that, using the procedures of the House, he has had a pretty good run at this and will therefore feel able to withdraw the amendment.