Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill

We may not have a meeting of minds on this. We understand the strength of the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield. However, we come at it from a slightly different view. In order to institute a new concept of devolution, there has to be certainty within that, which is why we would want the principal council to have that final certainty. Perhaps at the end of my remarks, I might have persuaded Members of the Committee of my view. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has tabled Amendments Nos. 204CK, 204CL and 204CM relating to when parish councils with low populations can or cannot be created. The noble Lord has also tabled Amendments Nos. 204CN and 204CP, which insert new clauses after Clause 96. On the creation of parish councils in areas with low populations, Clause 96(3) provides that a review must recommend that parishes with 150 or fewer local government electors should not have a parish council. The effects of these amendments would be to allow small parishes with electorates of 150 or fewer to have a parish council if the parish meeting of the parish resolved to have one, which was confirmed by a parish poll, as the noble Lord has explained. Amendment No. 204CK would remove Clause 96(3), which prevents the review from recommending that parishes with 150 electors or fewer have a parish council. We have included this provision in this clause to address what we see as the difficulty which sometimes exists in small parishes; in particular, getting sufficient numbers of people to stand for election to the parish council. I should make it clear, however, that this provision would not prevent a group of 150 or fewer electors presenting a community governance petition to a principal council recommending the constitution of a new parish for its area, which would allow for the creation of a parish meeting rather than council. Where a new parish is created with an electorate of 150 or fewer, the review must recommend that the parish should not have a council. However, I can reassure Members of the Committee—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, is completely aware of this anyway—that this provision does not apply to an existing parish of the same size, which already has a parish council. Any existing parish that falls within that category can continue to have a parish council. The Bill does not alter the position under Section 11 of the Local Government Act 1972, whereby the parish meeting of a parish may apply to the principal council for its parish to be grouped with two or more neighbouring parishes under a common parish council. In summary, we do not believe that Amendments Nos. 204CK, 204CL and 204CM are required. We consider that while the Bill’s provisions do not affect existing parish councils with low populations, they will help in the future to resolve problems that exist with some small parish councils being unable to find sufficient members. We are also resisting Amendments Nos. 204CN and 204CP, which insert new clauses after Clause 96. Our proposals in the Bill are about devolving power from central to local government and communities. Clause 95 sets out duties for principal councils to undertake community governance reviews. The key elements of that provision and of Clause 98 require principal councils to consult, to take account of representations and to make known the outcomes of their decisions for putting in place any community governance arrangements. The necessary processes and mechanisms set out in Part 4 of the Bill on parishes cover sufficiently the sort of situations for which the noble Lord is trying to provide, whether on proposals for abolition or on proposals for the grouping of parishes. Just as for any proposal to make changes to create or alter the boundaries of an existing parish, under the Government’s proposals, where a principal authority might wish to consider the abolition of a parish council or the grouping of several parishes, it would still need to meet its statutory obligations. Principal councils would need to consider local opinion, including that of parish councillors and local electors. Any decision taken by the principal council could be legally challenged, and a court would have to be convinced that the decision was justified. The noble Lord’s amendments would extend the involvement of local electors through parish meetings, giving them a say in determining the outcome of any review through a motion on recommendation made or a poll. In either case the Bill provides for not only local electors to be consulted on any review but anyone else as well, including the local authority, who appears to have an interest in it. Such stakeholders would, of course, include existing parish councils. While the noble Lord’s amendments may be well intentioned, they are unnecessary and would effectively remove the new devolved power from principal council to the parish level—or at least make that less certain. As I have tried to explain, it is quite appropriate that local electors and stakeholders should be consulted properly about community governance arrangements and that their views be fully taken into account. Ultimately, it is for the principal council to take decisions on these matters and implement them. We do not wish to devolve to principal councils on the one hand while saying on the other hand that the decisions they make cannot be implemented without the support of parish meetings. We need certainty in the devolution process. We are also keen to encourage contested elections and believe that parish councils in an area with fewer than 150 electors would face difficulties in having contested elections for the minimum of five parish council seats. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.