Pensions Bill

My Lords, I rather hoped that we could end with consensus across the House on this last amendment. We thought long and hard about this matter, but unfortunately I cannot support the amendment. I suppose that the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, and I can at least say that we have the satisfaction of being reunited with our Back Benchers on an issue. The noble Lord, Lord Fowler, has argued strongly for the value of post-legislative scrutiny. Indeed, we support the idea that greater effort should be given to this issue. I begin by reminding noble Lords of the Government’s commitment to maintaining the consensus that has been established through a transparent review of the assumptions underlying the reform programme. We have already set in train a programme of work to develop an evidence base in consultation with a range of stakeholders that can underpin the future evaluation of our reforms. This includes a series of recent workshops with academics, pension experts, stakeholders and other government departments to explore their views. We aim to produce an evidence and strategy document later this year. I reject the suggestion that the Government believe that their job is done when legislation is passed—a point pressed by the noble Lords, Lord Norton of Louth and Lord Fowler. That is not the Government’s view. Alongside what we are doing, noble Lords may be aware—indeed, several noble Lords commented on this—that the Law Commission has reported on post-legislative scrutiny, and we are very grateful to it for its valuable contribution. It rightly recognises that one size does not fit all and that any system of post-legislative scrutiny will need a degree of flexibility. Different Acts will need to be treated in different ways. Some will have longer timescales than others before any assessment can be made of how they are working out in practice. In some fields, new legislation may be only a small part of the overall picture. In others, a new Act may be absolutely central to the policy and administrative framework. The Bill falls within that definition. We continue to give close consideration to the Law Commission’s report into how parliamentary and other structures can best deliver its objectives. I do not think that anyone wants a structure that involves the formulaic, time-consuming and burdensome scrutiny of every Act, irrespective of need. Nor do I think that a structure that leads simply to a re-run in Parliament of high-level policy debates would be appropriate, and, to be fair, that is not what the noble Lord proposes. We are consulting across government before we respond formally to the Commission’s proposals in the coming months. I am conscious that perhaps I should reply in more detail to the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, to give him a clearer indication of quite who will be responsible and who will be driving forward that response. In those circumstances, it would be wrong for me to pre-empt the Government’s response, but we support the idea that greater effort should be given to post-legislative scrutiny, which will enable Parliament to assess whether legislation is having the intended effect. Perhaps I may remind noble Lords that the key recommendations of the Law Commission include, for example, a joint parliamentary committee with a flexible remit to decide which Acts should receive scrutiny, how, by whom and when. In a sense, by putting the amendment in the Bill, we might pre-empt that recommendation if it were something that the Government might wish to adopt. I assure noble Lords that any proposals involving Parliament will be open to debate in this House and in the other place. I hope that I am right in thinking that the noble Lord’s main objective is to ensure that we are fully committed to keeping this Bill, when enacted, under review to make sure that we are in a position properly to judge whether it is working out in the way intended. There are two elements to the amendment. The second part, to provide a power to arrange subsequent scrutiny, would not substantively add anything to the inherent ability of the Secretary of State to keep legislation under review. The first part, which requires post-legislative scrutiny after four years, could interfere with the flexibility needed to make sure that any review is conducted at the most appropriate time. My noble friend Lady Turner touched on that in particular. The Bill provides for a package of reform measures that will come into effect over approximately the next five years. It would be premature to carry out any post-legislative scrutiny before the reform measures have been implemented or have had time to bed in. For example, we will not, within four years, have implemented the reforms to simplify state second pension or have abolished contracting out for defined contribution schemes. Neither is it right to suggest that there is no scrutiny going on at all. Post-legislative scrutiny is currently carried out by Select Committees, including the Work and Pensions Select Committee. This is in addition to internal departmental reviews. We need to be concerned about adding another layer in the suggested form, which I believe would be inflexible. The reforms to the basic state pension will take effect for people reaching state pension age in April 2010. By the time the scrutiny would have to take place, there would have been little time to gauge the effect of the reforms. It would take place a year after those provisions came into effect. I would hope to have persuaded the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, and other noble Lords not to press the amendment, because I do not believe that we are apart in recognising that post-legislative scrutiny has an important role to play. But to put it in the Bill with a restricted time limit, and with the use of a term where we have not identified quite what post-legislative scrutiny means and how it should generally be conducted, I would suggest is not appropriate.