Forced Marriage (Civil Protection) Bill [HL]

The noble Baroness, Lady Verma, began by saying that these are probing amendments, and it is absolutely right to test these issues. All of the issues being raised today have been the subject of a great deal of discussion with officials, the judiciary and other organisations. We have gone through in detail a series of questions and concerns, so the opportunity afforded us by the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, enables me to say a little about those discussions for the benefit of those who cannot be with us but who take a great interest in this matter, not least Members of another place who will want to see that we have dealt with them properly. I take the amendments in the spirit of being the key to understanding these issues. I shall begin by explaining a little about the ““wishes and feelings”” part of the legislation. In my remarks earlier, I referred to the overarching nature of our approach. One of the questions raised by the Forced Marriage Unit, by victims themselves and the organisations working closely with them, and indeed by the judiciary and the legal profession, is that the disempowerment of an individual is almost absolute in this context. Individuals feel that they have lost control of their own lives. The ““wishes and feelings”” part of this is to ensure that we do not further disempower them and that we are not doing things to them; rather that we are involving them as much as possible so as to understand what they want. I used to be an education Minister, and I was involved in the passage of two children Bills through your Lordships’ House. I can remember many discussions about wishes and feelings, particularly in the context of children. We have to make sure that we provide an opportunity to listen to them. The court is able to instruct the family to bring a young person before it, and it is right and proper if the third party bringing forward the action is able to do that. The court service CAFCASS can be available to those children. CAFCASS officers are experienced in talking to young people in an appropriate way, often not anywhere near a courtroom, but in a place where children feel comfortable. CAFCASS officers can then report back. Equally, the courts can ask social services representatives to talk to adults to ascertain as far as possible their wishes and feelings. Indeed, one of the areas that we have discussed only today, which I know Mr Justice Munby considered in one of his judgments, is vulnerable adults. Noble Lords will know that I am responsible for the implementation of the Mental Capacity Act, and I can confirm that there is an issue about those who are adult but vulnerable because they lack capacity in some form or have learning difficulties. It is important that the courts are able to use professional support to ascertain wishes and feelings. However, we have had to be clear in our own minds and in the legislation that this may not always be possible. Given that, the courts need to be able to act on the best information they have, at least on a temporary basis, while they find out as much as they can. We know in the context of children’s legislation and issues of contact and custody orders following divorce that there are real questions about children saying what they think they ought to say. Again, it is important that the courts are able to take the circumstances into account when weighing up how far expressed wishes and feelings really do reflect what the young person wants rather than reacting to what might be said as a result of all sorts of pressure. That is why the legislation is framed in this way. Based on previous experience and after undertaking wide consultation, I believe that we have the balance right. However, we must leave it in some part to the courts to take into account all the different issues, which again points to the need to provide the best possible advice, training and support to the judiciary. I hope that answers the questions put to me about the value placed on wishes and feelings. Does the question of forced marriage help in terms of evidence of nullity? Yes, it does.