Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, in moving the amendment, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, referred to our debates in Committee on this subject. He failed to mention that this is the fourth time that we have covered this subject in the past two months because it featured very largely in the Second Reading debate and the Committee on this Bill and was the subject of the noble and learned Lord’s Bill that we debated the other day. We are now debating this matter again, and I understand thatthe Minister has debated it on a number of earlier occasions. She is now looking at me with pursed lips, if I can put it in that manner, and I offer her my commiserations for having to debate it yet again. However, after all this time, it may be that she will come to see the merits of the arguments in the noble and learned Lord’s case and of the arguments put forward by speakers from around the House. On the reaction from the Government, I hope that this debate might prove to be the exception. On this occasion, perhaps I may suggest a shorter response from the Minister, as requested by the noble and learned Lord. The noble Baroness could simply say that she accepts all the arguments that have been put forward. The noble and learned Lord has put his arguments forward very well. It is not for me to reiterate all that he and others have said. I underline only one point—a point made by the noble and learned Lord and others—that in a great many other countries, outside the United Kingdom, intercept evidence has been used in the past. I refer to a trip made by my right honourable friend David Davis to North America only last month when he saw that in action. As the noble Baroness will be aware, outside the United Kingdom intercept evidence has been used to convict al-Qaeda cells in the United States following 9/11; it has been used to convict various serious criminals—the so-called five godfathers of New York crime—and it has been used before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia at the Hague to convict war criminals. The Minister noted various omissions of intercept evidence in her response to the noble and learned Lord's Private Member’s Bill, which we debated two or three Fridays ago. I direct her to those examples and I reiterate the request made at the time for the figures on using intercept evidence in serious drugs cases. I expect she will find that the issue is not as cut and dried as she then seemed to think. On that occasion, the Minister mentioned safeguards and I would like to direct her to the evidence gathered by my right honourable friend David Davis in America last month. In America,they make essential use of classified information procedures. The safeguards are solid and the benefits are overwhelming, yet still, unfortunately, they are over there and not over here. In literally thousands of organised crime cases, intercept evidence has been the key evidence on which the verdict has turned. Often, if intercept evidence is permitted, the accused accepts a plea bargain. It is also vital in enterprise cases. Where big organised crime is involved, intercept evidence can be used in plea bargains to get minor players to give evidence against the bigger fish. The noble Baroness may be interested to hear a little about the safeguards surrounding that procedure. As I understand it, first, a judge must authorise the use of intercept, which would be in camera, and the defence would have an opportunity to challenge that if it wished. Further, judges and defence lawyers involved in the procedure must have particular clearance to deal with intercept material. In support of those measures, evidence may be edited or summarised to protect the sources and to allow the defence to challenge it in open court. Again in summary, to repeat what has been said by a great many noble Lords in this debate, the United Kingdom is the only country in the common law world to refuse the admittance in court of evidence gathered on home soil. Furthermore, as I understand it, evidence gathered in the United Kingdom can be admitted for use in the United States. Therefore, on this occasion, after so many earlier opportunities, we hope that the noble Baroness will consider this and,in the light of evidence in the United States of the proven effectiveness of their safeguards, be tempted to offer, dare I say, the short and sweet response to the amendment of the noble and learned Lord.