Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, until October last year I was closer to this argument and debate in government than I am now. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, will know, I have not been persuaded of the arguments in favour of his amendment. We went through this ground at length during the Second Reading of his Private Member’s Bill, so I will not detain the House by going into detail. I wish to make three points. First, my understanding is that, in comparison with other countries, the relationship between intelligence agencies and law enforcement agencies is much closer in the United Kingdom than it is in virtually all the other countries that have been discussed. As the noble Baroness, Lady Park, said,we are not talking about conventional telephone tapping but about techniques that are far more sophisticated in the intercept of all kinds of electronic communications. As I understand it, that close proximity gives the character to the present debate, in particular about whether it is right to admit intercept evidence. My second point is that the use of intercept evidence is court will produce a high volume of material in many cases because intercepts are often left to run for considerable periods of time. That will place a heavy burden on intelligence agencies, law enforcement and the prosecution because the material will have to be gone through, sometimes in minute detail, in order to ensure that material that properly ought to be kept secret is blacked out or markedin some way so that that can be done. If it is an intelligence agency tap, intelligence agents will have to do that, and I would prefer them to be used for intelligence, not as disclosure officers. My third point is that, in moving his amendment, the noble and learned Lord concluded that the issue is a lack of political will. I assure him and the House that, from my observation of this matter, that is not the case. A considerable amount of work has gone in at high levels in government and in the associated agencies to try to produce a model that will meetthe proper concerns of the intelligence and law enforcement agencies. All the models that have been produced have had an aspect which has meant that they could not go ahead. I can say with complete candour that it is not a lack of political will. Many of us would love to see the result that the noble and learned Lord wishes, but the report from the commissioner, to which I have no doubt the Minister will refer in her reply, made clear that there are serious concerns about whether this is the right way to go. I hope that this matter will not be pressed.