Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, I was referring to the particular procedures followed in a criminal trial, not to public immunity certificates, to which I think the noble and learned Lord refers. These procedures were introduced in 1993. I have never come across a single instance where confidentiality between the prosecutor and the judge has been broken. I would be surprised if any noble Lord present who has experience of the criminal court had come across any such instance either. It follows that the fears expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Park, and the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, perhaps relate to a different era, when those procedures were not in place. We have discussed this matter on many occasions. I find it remarkable that we are discussing the criminal procedure for obtaining serious crime prevention orders in a context where these orders can be obtained on hearsay evidence—that is precisely what a later clause, which we will discuss, says—but not using evidence out of the mouth of the defendant who is before the court, proving what he said, with whom he has conspired and so on. It is extraordinary that rumour and hearsay are enough but what the defendant actually says is not.