Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, the report of the Select Committee on the Constitution set out clearly the challenge that faces the House today in our scrutiny of Part 1. It said: "““A broad question for the House is whether the use of civil orders in an attempt to prevent serious criminal activity is a step too far in the development of preventative orders””." That is what has guided us on these Benches in how we have approached our consideration of Part 1. In these amendments we reach the core of the objections of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, to Part 1. I have always made it clear that it is vital thatthe Government—any Government, indeed—should protect the British public from those who do everything they can to encourage serious organised crime, profit from it and yet ensure that their own hands do not appear dirty in public. They keep in the background but profit from it by millions and billions of pounds and cause destruction to people’s lives. We know that it is difficult to take measures to protect the public from people like that, but we also know thatwe must try to do so. However, the methods that we adopt must be proportionate and effective—the two go together—without undermining our own system of law and justice. The Select Committee’s report makes it clearthat we should consider whether the Government’s proposals in Part 1 would undermine that systemof law and justice. The best weapon against serious criminals is, of course, to track them down, charge them, prosecute them and hope to secure a conviction to put them behind bars for a very long time for the protection of the public. That is what prison should be about; we remain firmly of that view. In Committee, I tabled a large number of probing amendments to give the House the opportunity to examine the whole range of the impact of the provisions in Part 1, and particularly to examinethe principle and practice that should underpin the imposition by our courts of these new serious crime prevention orders. My objective was to give noble Lords the fullest opportunity in Committee to determine whether the new civil injunctive orders were a step too far or whether there might be grounds on which they should be tolerated. The Minister gave careful and detailed explanations in her responses in Committee. We did not agree with everything thatshe said; we did not believe that all of her responses were satisfactory; but we certainly recognise that amendments tabled by the Government today make improvements to the Bill that may be sufficient for us to accept that Part 1 should stand part of the Bill, although we remain seriously sceptical about the effectiveness and the range of the Government’s proposals. I am very grateful to the Minister for meeting my noble friend Lord Henley and me last week to discuss the proposals in the Bill and for her subsequent telephone conversations and meetings this week regarding potential government amendments, some of which we and other noble Lords saw only at the last minute. They do make improvements, and the Minister was able to develop further the Government’s position regarding the justification for the proposals in Part 1. She further explained the protections that she believed would be in place. Those meetings and explanations have been helpful and I invite the Minister today to put on record clearly the effect of the reassurances that she gave. We would certainly prefer the criminal procedure to be adopted for applications for serious crime prevention orders if it is at all possible—we are atone with the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, on that. However, we recognise that that would scupper the very attempt that the Government have made in introducing serious crime prevention orders. The Government have made it clear in the past that they expect criminal prosecutions to proceed wherever possible, that applications for serious crime prevention orders should be used as a last resort and that it is anticipated that the number of such applications should be low—perhaps about 30 a year. We hope that that would mean that it is not a case of a lack of resources but that they are being properly targeted. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity to be robust on all those matters today. We have considered our position extremely carefully between Committee and Report as to whether we should join the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, in attempting to remove Part 1 from the Bill. Let us be in no doubt that the result of these amendments would be to render the effect of Part 1 null and void. That is what we are about when we consider these apparently innocuous and reasonable objections of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. We have concluded that we shall not support these amendments. We wish to give the Government the opportunity to prove that serious crime prevention orders can operate without undermining our system of justice and can trammel the activities of those around the world who profit from crime in such an evil way. I realise all too well that the resources of our police and law enforcement agencies have been extremely stretched over the years as they have struggled to bring these people to justice. We have seen a recent example where it has taken about 20 years to nail somebody, and not necessarily on the offences with which the police would like to have seen that person charged if they had had the evidence to bring beforea criminal court. None of us underestimates how important it is for the security of this country to bring such people to justice. With such examples in mind, on this occasion we are prepared to go that extra mile—for us it is a very hard extra mile—and not support these amendments.