European Union (Information, etc.) Bill [HL]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, for proposing this interesting amendment. That does not necessarily mean that I agree with the actual details of the proposals. I am grateful to other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and to the Minister for her contribution, which although brief was a very soundly enunciated commitment to the membership of the European Union, which this Government have always stated, from the Prime Minister downwards. That is appreciated. The noble Lord, Lord Monson, made some very interesting points that reinforce my intention to try to persuade the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, who I know is a gentleman, to reconsider the amendment. I am very grateful for the comments made by my noble friend Lord Watson and the noble Lord, Lord Cobbold, on this matter. I was very anxious to emphasise at Second Reading, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, will remember, that this modest exercise and this modest Bill would be a failure if all sorts of details were not given about the European Union and our membership of it that were also adverse and negative—provided, of course, that it was factual information given through respectable public channels from independent media and so on, as we discussed before, rather than tendentious statements made perhaps above all by politicians but by many other people as well. That will be the basis of the objective information to be provided in the European Union information centres. It would, I am sure, include a lot of critical information about the EU as well. It would be daft for anyone, however enthusiastic they might be about European Union membership, to say that nothing in it poses any problems and that everything is correct. That would be childish in every way. As the very idea and notion of EU membership gets more implanted into the minds of the citizens of the member states and it is not regarded as a dangerous matter for their countries to be members, I think that natural desire to criticise in any democracy should grow. Perhaps in earlier stages those who were keen on our membership of the European Union overdid the defending of every aspect of it because they were so nervous about some of the existential attacks on European Union membership. I was a little bemused by the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Pearson. I am flattered in one sense but disappointed in another as he himself clearly said that he was keen on this Bill from the point of view of providing information which he would obviously consider in a different light from some of my conclusions. I am very grateful to him for emphasising, both at Second Reading and at this Committee stage, that he thinks this Bill is a good idea from that point of view. What he has done with the change of nomenclature from Chancellor of the Exchequer to Privy Council in Amendment No. 3 is to lift clauses and subsections entirely from his own European Union (Implications of Withdrawal) Bill which still awaits a Second Reading. I believe I am right in saying that the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, was one of the first to propose his Bill for First Reading when the present Session of Parliament. He therefore presumably had an opportunity to set a date for Second Reading some time ago but no date has yet been fixed. Therefore I am flattered but disconcerted to see that his technique—I do not accept it to be the right way of doing this—is to put a provision into my Bill. Is it to make it more difficult for the Bill to proceed? The noble Lord says not and I am grateful for that. But it seems to me that that kind of clause would make it much more difficult to actuate the provisions of the Bill. There are many ways in which decisions on fundamental membership can be dealt with outside of European Union information centres, which should be routine even if the data are extensive and deal with many different sectors. Therefore, I urge the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, to withdraw his amendment, if he would be so kind as to consider that as a possibility today, and to set a date for the Second Reading of his European Union (Implications of Withdrawal) Bill so that we can have another proper debate on those more fundamental aspects. It would be a pity—