Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, the reason that the civil test is the appropriate one is that there may be different factors which will need a different level of proof. The noble and learned Lord will know well that we are—I do not hesitate to say—blessed with some of the best judges that the world has on offer. Our judges are very used, as the noble and learned Lord will know from his own experience, to making that judicious balance as to which factors need to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, which factors need a heavy burden of probability before the court would be capable of being satisfied about it and which factors can be safely used to a lesser burden. Overall, the court will take into account the different parts of the evidence and in the end have to judge whether the totality of the evidence produced reaches the commensurate standard with the assertion which has been maintained by the party so that it is discharged. That has proved over time to be an extraordinarily flexible and accurate tool for those properly trained to employ it. My noble friend Lady Gibson is therefore right about training. Noble Lords will know that particularly now with the Judicial Studies Board, every time we have a new piece of legislation we can ensure that there is appropriate training not only by legal practitioners but also by the judiciary in how to respond. I can assure her on that important matter. I shall now concentrate my remarks on Part 1 because it has excited the most concern in the debate. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, for the way in which she approached even Part 1, and because both she and the noble Lord, Lord Henley, along with a number of other noble Lords, have made it relatively clear that there is less concern about Parts 2 and 3 although there are issues related to data sharing and the operation of the Data Protection Act. The nature and specificity of the offences covered by Part 1 are important. I was tempted to rise during the debate to try better to explain the fishing example, but I confess that I was so enjoying the enjoyment of noble Lords in making their case that I hesitated to do so until it was my time to speak. We have some serious environmental issues to tackle in relation to the inappropriate fishing of endangered species. They are fished on a wholesale basis for gain. It is a serious crime which damages both our fishing industry and that of Europe, and it is something we are obliged to address with an appropriate degree of seriousness. There is also the problem of dumping at sea, a form of pollution which has environmental consequences. These are serious crime targets that we are seeking to deal with in this Bill. Certain cases are systemic while other serious offences are one-offs. We are looking at things that happen repeatedly. I also want to reassure the House that we are clear that if serious crime is identified, it should be investigated, prosecuted and the perpetrators brought to trial wherever possible. This part of the Bill looks at prevention once patterns of serious crime have been established. It looks at how to prevent those who have been so identified continuing those patterns of behaviour. I anticipate that we will spend some time in Committee dealing with how to establish and define serious crime, what is its nature, its quantum and its continuity, and I understand why the House has identified this as an issue. Bearing in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, described so graphically, I hope that together we will be able first to come to a common understanding and then to craft something with which noble Lords will at least feel content. During the debate I have encountered some issues that are old friends. One of the oldest of these is intercept. The issue has now become very dear to me. I cannot but see the noble and learned Lord in his place to know that any debate at any time on any day on any issue should have intercept woven somewhere into its fabric. If it were not, I would be deeply disappointed. The same is true of the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and I hold the issue of gun crime in the same degree of affection given the debates that we have enjoyed over time. Indeed, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, for sending his bouquet in relation to my answers. It is a rare bouquet; I acknowledge it and I am grateful for it. We have canvassed the issue on a number of occasions. We understand what the noble Lord intends to present but I anticipate that we may come to a similar conclusion. I understand why the issue of intercept has been raised again, and the noble and learned Lord will know that it has remained under active consideration. The issue has not been resolved but, as he and other noble Lords will know, that has not been as a result of a lack of energy. There are difficult and complex points to be resolved. I reiterate that if it could be safely used, the Government would have no objection in principle. We have not yet found a way of using it safely but that does not mean that we will not continue to look at the issue. Once it has been established that a crime has been committed, we have the possibility of using the orders on a preventive basis. We believe that if they could be used judiciously, appropriately and in a restrained way, it would inure to our advantage and not our disadvantage. I am conscious that I have about seven minutes in which to cover Parts 2 and 3. Therefore, if I may, I shall deal more briefly with the other issues raised. I hear with absolute clarity the concerns about mining for information. As I said in opening, the data protection provisions will remain. We were very anxious about the concerns expressed by the Information Commissioner, whose role is to scrutinise issues and to ensure compliance and that he is consulted. We have continued that consultation and are relatively assured that what is proposed in the Bill does not trespass inappropriately on the data protection provisions. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we are actively discussing with the commissioner the concerns which he expressed about scrutiny. We are already working with the Information Commissioner at official and ministerial level. As the provisions are enabling powers, the Information Commissioner’s role in them has still to be decided. However, we are committed to creating a transparent, proportionate and fair system which ensures that the right people receive the benefits and services that the provisions are intended to create. As noble Lords will be aware, the Data Protection Act already allows us to deal slightly differently with data for criminal and other purposes. Nothing that we propose in the Bill will trespass against those principles. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, raised extensive queries about what that will mean and how we will take it forward. Although I should like to give him a very detailed response, I know from the sheaves of paper in my hand and what is in my head that that may take some little time. We now have notice of all the issues which the House would most like to have answered. I can promise noble Lords that, in Committee, we will bear all those in mind and seek to address them. I thank noble Lords for indicating their concerns now so that we can bear them very much in mind when responding to any amendments. The tax provisions are very similar to those that already exist. We have transposed the existing provisions into the new provisions in a way that we think is proportionate and temperate. Before leaving this whole debate, I should like to say that I know that many disobliging comments have been made about the Assets Recovery Agency. With regard to its performance, we need to bear a number of issues in mind. First, it was a new agency. Secondly, the methods it was using to collect assets were complex and untested, and were challenged in the courts. That has reduced the speed with which it was able to work at the inception of the process. The agency has actually been successful, and has defeated all those challenges. As a result, the courts have been able to define what the agency can and cannot do, and what the process is. We have found in the past year that performance has speeded up considerably. This has been the most successful year so far. We anticipate that the outstanding claims, which were taking longer because of that process, will now come through. I understand the anxieties in what has been said, but I also believe that had SOCA been in existence before we created the Assets Recovery Agency, we would probably have had one agency. I agree with what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, that this is a sensible move. SOCA is a very impressive organisation, and we are hopeful that the amalgamation of the two agencies will greatly accelerate our ability to asset-manage. I know that I have not dealt with each and every issue raised seriatim, but I assure your Lordships that I intend to answer fully when we come to debate this in Committee. I thank the House for its kindness to me and its welcome back, notwithstanding the nature of the Bill I have to propose. On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.