Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their participation in the debate. I thank most warmly the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and others who have expressed such kindness about my current position. Many have written to me and I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for joining in that kindness. At one stage, I thought that the expression of condolences was just to see whether the House could do that which it has never achieved before: to make me cry at the Dispatch Box. I also thank those who have supported the ethos and the purpose of the Bill, even if not all have wholeheartedly supported the way in which it has been done. Some of the barbed support will certainly be taken on board. I thank, in particular, my noble friend Lady Gibson of Market Rasen and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his support in relation to data sharing. I understand the anxiety expressed about ensuring that the provisions to address these very serious offences are proportionate and fair. I take on board the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, that law has to be just, as well as being justly applied. Those issues are very important indeed. I warmly thank the noble Lord, Lord Dear, because he encapsulated so beautifully the danger that is posed to us and to our communities by serious, organised criminals who undertake their pernicious crimes with a sense of arrogance, disregard and wholesale criminality in a way that is very shocking indeed. Our need to grapple with those issues cannot be underestimated and I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving us such clear examples as to why that is so. I also take very seriously the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Goodhart, among others, about the need to get this right. That cannot be underemphasised. I particularly want to say how much I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Burnett, that this issue does not just affect us in the United Kingdom. Regrettably, serious crime has become an international business. These are multi-national criminals who often carry out their pernicious practices in many jurisdictions. Therefore, the need to understand comity and how we promote effectiveness and appropriate measures is absolutely critical. I do not share with some noble Lords the belief that ASBOs, for instance, have been unsuccessful. I know that that view was initially expressed by the Liberal Democrat Benches, but I have had the joy of seeing a Damascene-like conversion: many Liberal Democrats have now joined to support the efficacy of anti-social behaviour orders if appropriately and proportionately used. I understand entirely the need for that. That is why I want to remind the House that we have put certain stringent boulders in the way of inappropriate use of these orders. These are not orders which we think will be used on a wholesale basis, but orders which will capable of being used very judiciously. That is why it is not the general Crown Prosecution Service which will be empowered to ask for these orders. Only three prosecuting authorities will have the ability so to do. I hope that the House will accept that the three identified are they who are charged on our behalf with dealing with the most serious offences. The evidential burden that will need to be discharged will rightly be heavy. I thank those who have acknowledged the sliding scale in relation to the balance of probabilities. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, correctly referred the House to the McCann case in 2003 which set the standard very clearly for those who thought that it might, as time has passed, have come in doubt. It reaffirmed that he who asserts must prove and if the assertion is of a serious nature one has to produce commensurate evidence to discharge that balance of probability. In the most serious issues, quite often the distinction between the criminal standard and the civil standard will be negligible.