Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

Yes, but that is not a good enough answer. Of course there is a relationship. If the Cabinet decides that limited resources shall be given to the Prison Service, and that is why it is so badly organised that a prisoner dies in his cell, a jury would not convict if Clause 3(1) were left in place but Clause 3(2) removed. The jury would conclude that it was not the fault of other parts of the Home Office or the prison governors, but a policy decision at Cabinet level. That would provide a let-out. Unsatisfactory as that might be, it would show clearly at the end of the court case where the blame lay and the Government would have to face up to that. The reality is that in the majority of cases—and in the Mubarek case that we have discussed in some detail—it would seem to have been a failure of management organisation and care to ensure that what had in theory been organised took place in practice. I see no reason why public authorities should not be held liable in those circumstances. I hope that debate in this Committee and on the Bill will not focus solely on the Mubarek case or on the question of custody. There are much wider issues involving public authorities. There might be situations in which there was such gross negligence by those for whom public authorities were responsible that sadly one or more people died—although we hope that will not happen, of course. We want to focus on those situations, and we want the Government to justify their exemptions. They must be able to persuade this Committee and the public that there is a sound reason for limiting the degree of Crown liability. The Government have really not made very large strides with Crown immunity, which was extended, sometimes with the instance or encouragement of the Opposition, during the 18 years when I supported a Conservative Government—and it was right that it should have been. In so far as complete Crown immunity is not claimed in this Bill, that is a ground for support—but it is then clawed back far too much. I question the justification for the heavy restriction on Crown immunity brought about by Clause 3(2), and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s answer.