Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

I thank all noble Lords who have participated in a very interesting debate. First, I say to my noble friend that he has not dealt in his comprehensive response with the fears that unions have about the operation of this legislation when it is put into effect. As I made clear at the beginning, their concern is that the legislation, which they generally support, will not bite sufficiently for it to have the necessary effect. One of the reasons why we think pinning down individual liability is important is because we feel that this will help to change the culture of the company. There are many companies, as we know—in the construction industry, for example, to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, referred—which have a bad record in relation to accidents, including fatal accidents. If one is to change the culture of a company, it is important that it is made absolutely clear that individuals who make decisions that result in death will have to answer for that somewhere or other. The question of individual liability is very important to the public. I received a long document from an organisation representing families of workers who had been killed in industrial accidents. It is clear that it is concerned to ensure that there should be individual liability for the accidents which, in some cases, have robbed families of the breadwinner and created terrible stress for them. It is important to ensure that the issue of individual liability is made absolutely clear, tied down and made a requirement of this new legislation. I also thank my noble friend Lady Gibson for her comments on health and safety. She has long experience of the Health and Safety Commission and she made it clear that there had not been many cases of prosecution when she was in office, and that those that had taken place were mainly in respect of small companies. As to secondary liability, I do not feel that my noble friend the Minister has adequately dealt with the strong arguments advanced by my noble friend Lord Wedderburn. We shall be looking at all that between now and Report to see whether we can come back on this issue of secondary liability.