Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

Yet again, we have had an interesting debate on yet another Northern Ireland Bill. It makes a change to be debating a Northern Ireland measure on the Floor of the House rather than in Committee. Long may that continue, at least until the Assembly is up and running, as we hope that it will be very soon. I will return to that prospect in a few moments. Let me run through some of the comments made by hon. Members. The right hon. Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) again spoke in a Northern Ireland debate and gave us the benefit of his experience of being Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) has also been representing the Liberal Democrats on the Welsh Grand Committee today, so he has done well to be in two places at once. He made detailed comments about the problems that the DPP might face when deciding whether to issue a certificate for certain offences because of the vague guidelines. He also objected, as we do, to the absence of any appeal mechanism. I am sure that we will return to the good points that he made in Committee. I had the pleasure of listening to the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) for three quarters of an hour in a meeting yesterday. He spoke for a similar length of time today, but he is always well worth listening to. He made an interesting comment about how although, in one sense, this is the end of the Diplock courts, the Bill puts the system on the books without an end to it. He also spoke interestingly about national security considerations. With respect to the Minister, I do not think that he gave the hon. Member for Foyle an adequate response, although I am sure that he will be able to clarify his position further. While it is important that we support the security services, which have a tremendously difficult job to do, I sometimes worry that when we leave things open and vague, almost anything can be excused as a matter of national security. We saw that happening when the Government attempted to introduce 90-day detentions. I would also like a little more clarification on the matter—if not today, perhaps in Committee. My hon. Friend the Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack), the Chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, made several good points. He asked why the Bill could not have waited until next year so that we could have found out what had happened in Northern Ireland. That view was echoed by several hon. Members, especially those from the Democratic Unionist party. I give my hon. Friend a promise that we will test that matter again in Committee. Owing to the slightly early start of the wind-ups, the hon. Member for Blaydon (Mr. Anderson) has not yet managed to return to the Chamber. Although he mentioned the fact that we have moved on considerably, he rightly referred to the difficulties that still exist in Northern Ireland. The right hon. Member for North Antrim (Rev. Ian Paisley) paid a warm tribute to the Diplock judges and the work that they have carried out in difficult circumstances. I think that the whole House would endorse what he said in that respect. He said that he regretted the need to continue to hold some trials without juries, but he stressed that there is a need to do so at the moment. In both an intervention and his speech, he questioned the role of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and the human rights commissioner. He cited a detailed objection to the particular person in that position, but his more general point was to ask whether there is actually a need for the commission and what work it carries out. Again, I will return to that very matter and the extension of the powers of the commissioner in Committee. The hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) was a little bit more supportive of the human rights commissioner, whereas the hon. Member for East Antrim (Sammy Wilson) spoke of the need, as he saw it, for the Army powers and Diplock courts, but not for the NIHRC. The hon. Member for Belfast, South (Dr. McDonnell) spoke in detail about his concerns on trials conducted without a jury. The hon. Member for South Antrim (Dr. McCrea) spoke in support of the search powers, and he drew attention to concerns about the situation in south Armagh, which I visited not that long ago. I think that he is right that people are concerned about security in that area, and we have to be conscious of that. The hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) gave quite a long speech. I look forward to sitting in Committee with her, but I hope that her speeches will be slightly shorter than the one that she gave today, although she raised some good points. She expressed great concern about giving so much discretion to the DPP. The hon. Member for Upper Bann (David Simpson) raised a number of concerns, particularly about the circumstances in which someone could be arrested in Northern Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) said at the outset of the debate, we are, in principle, in broad support of the Bill. We have a number of concerns, which I shall raise in Committee, and the main one is about the DPP’s role as regards trials. It is an unsatisfactory situation, but for reasons of which we are all aware, there is trial without jury in Northern Ireland. I question whether it is right for the person responsible for bringing prosecutions to decide the mode of trial. I am not convinced that that is the right way forward but, again, we can consider that in Committee. It causes me concern that we should still be in the same situation. I would be the first to accept that things have moved on, but in talking about trial without jury, we must acknowledge that there is still a serious problem in Northern Ireland. One of the problems is one of the main political parties’ lack of support for not only the police but the whole justice system. The fact that we are considering the Bill, and the fact that there continues to be trial without jury, underlines the problem of that party not signing up fully to law and order. I was in the Province yesterday and the day before that, and I had a number of discussions with people, including members of Sinn Fein. They made the point that they did not feel that they could get their people fully to support the police unless they were given a date for the devolution of policing and justice. All hon. Members know that, under current legislation, that cannot happen, because the Assembly would have to endorse that, and until Sinn Fein give support to the police, a number of political parties, particularly the DUP, will not be happy to sit down in government with Sinn Fein. That is a vicious circle—one party will not sit down with Sinn Fein until it endorses policing, but Sinn Fein will not endorse policing until it has a date on which policing is to be devolved. However, that cannot be until the Assembly sits. As I said to the Minister yesterday, we need the Government to break that circle. They should suggest to Sinn Fein that it ought to support the police and the criminal justice system without any hesitation, regardless of any other circumstances.