Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

I shall write to the hon. Lady with the detailed answer that her question deserves. I assure her that I shall talk to her about the matter at greater length once I and my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid), who is listening to the debate, have had a chance to consider it. However, my biggest concern about clause 7 is that it is an ouster clause that sets a tremendously dangerous precedent for future legislation relating to the whole of the UK. The hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) was right to say that, if there is to be trial without a jury, the Liberal Democrats strongly prefer a three-judge system. He highlighted some of the reasons, but that is another matter that can be debated in more detail in Committee. Our preference, of course, is that jury trials should be the default position, as we do not want to provide a wide-open gateway for a return to Diplock courts by another name. On the Bill’s other provisions, we agree with the Government that there remains a case for putting in place special measures to protect the identity of jurors in Northern Ireland, but we have some questions about the special restrictions detailed in clause 9. For example, how widely do they apply? The Bill does not seem to specify that. How do they compare to jury-protection measures in the rest of the UK? Do the Government envisage that the restrictions will be permanent, or will they be rolled back as Northern Ireland moves closer to normality? I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to some of those questions later today, at least in outline terms. Clauses 13 to 19 extend the powers of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission and are very welcome. Some time ago, the commission said that it needed to be able to compel evidence and enter places of detention. We are very pleased to see that those powers are provided by the Bill, but we will need to table amendments in Committee and ask questions of the Minister to ensure that the provisions are constructed in such a way that they can be used effectively for the benefit of the people of Northern Ireland. The intention behind the clauses is sound, but we need to check that the provisions will be effective. For example, we are concerned about clause 19, which will prevent the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission from using its new powers retrospectively to compel evidence. The clause will mean that the commission will have no right to use that power except in relation to"““matters arising, and situations that exist, on or after 1st January 2008.””" In reality, the commission will be unable to investigate anything that has already happened, or which may happen in the next 12 months. Perhaps the Government have good reasons for imposing that restriction: if so, we need to hear them. We welcome the proposals in clauses 20 to 41 in respect of the powers of the security forces. Those will be general public order powers, no longer restricted to terrorist offences. This year’s marching season was peaceful in nature, and the Secretary of State has said that the Army was not deployed even once. Given that, we hope that there will be very few instances, if any, when the new powers will be used. That causes me to wonder whether we are being a little gold-plated in introducing powers that could turn out to be otiose. Clause 40 says that the Secretary of State may repeal the powers laid down in clauses 20 to 39. Does the Minister have in mind a time scale for when he hopes that those powers will no longer be necessary—might it be in five years, or 10 years, or two years, for instance? I suspect he will say that it is an open-ended question, which prompts me to make the usual observation, which spokespeople from the Social Democratic and Labour party have already made today: temporary powers tend to become permanent as soon as they have been passed, because the Government are much better at introducing regulations than removing them. The remaining provisions, in particular the clauses relating to the regulation of the private security industry in Northern Ireland, are also to be welcomed and could provide useful steering points for related UK legislation. The Security Industry Authority has been successful in its work in England and Wales, and we are supportive of the proposal in clause 45 to extend its remit to Northern Ireland. If it works in Northern Ireland, we can be quite sure that the Government’s legislation on that matter is fundamentally sound. The Liberal Democrats will not be calling a vote today. We want to give the Bill the chance to pass to Committee but, as I said earlier, unless clause 7 is repealed, we shall not be able to support the measure on Third Reading.