Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My right hon. Friend is correct: it might not be a light punishment, although even in the golf clubs of the home counties, while disqualification from being a company director might be thought quite severe, spending some months in prison might be considered an even more severe social sanction. Our discussion highlights why the courts should have a range of options. Ironically, in some circumstances—for former gangsters gone honest, for example—the penalty of a custodial sentence might not be found too troubling, but we might instead find that the Al Capone route of disqualification from serving as a director is a very effective penalty. Therefore, I support the concept that my right hon. Friend puts forward in his new clause. There are several reasons why it is necessary to have individual liability. First among them is that, in the end, this is not about vengeance; it is about what the public expect for those who are grossly negligent in a way that leads to the death of innocent people. [Interruption.] As my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles reminds me, such cases almost always involve avoidable death; that is why we are talking about gross neglect. Those deaths are not just unfortunate—they are not deaths that just unhappily happen. They are deaths that occur because there is gross neglect on the part of people within an organisation. When that happens, there is a strong expectation that those most directly responsible should bear specific and direct cost for that, and in many cases the most appropriate direct cost is imprisonment. Interestingly, there is probably not a huge gap between Members’ views on this matter—even between those of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield and those of Members who argue for custodial sentences. We are talking about what the driver should be for such custodial sentences. In fact, that is the only point of difference dividing Members involved in the debate. I should add to that statement: that is subject to what my hon. Friend the Minister says, because he is the only Member who has not yet spoken. However, without wishing to anticipate his comments, I know what his views are and his position is probably very similar to that of the hon. Member for Beaconsfield—so we have another Front-Bench conspiracy. We are not divided on this issue over a matter of absolute principle. Every Member agrees that where there is gross neglect by individuals, corporations or non-incorporated bodies—I am anticipating future amendments and matters that we might debate later—the public demand that certain actions be taken, and we in this Parliament ought to ensure that we provide the mechanisms whereby that demand is met. The demand is that those responsible for such events should receive the most severe penalty that our society offers, which is imprisonment. Therefore, it is right and proper that for the most extreme cases we try to weave in the normalcy of having the most extreme penalties for those culpable of causing death by gross negligence, reckless action and so forth. Therefore, this first group of amendments drives at the very heart of what we are trying to achieve in terms of changing the culture. It also perhaps drives at the very heart of the differences between the various mechanisms by which we might achieve that. I should say to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield that there is a difficulty with quite a lot of health and safety at work legislation. Although it was suggested earlier—I think to my hon. Friend the Member for Eccles—that section 37 might be a good thing to link with the charge of corporate manslaughter, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) pointed out, the problem with section 37 is that it cannot carry custodial sentences. We could look into amending that, but I hope we all accept what might happen if I were to say to my hon. Friend the Minister, ““Please can we begin to go through the rather tortuous parliamentary route of saying in principle that we would want to couple section 37 of the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974 to the corporate manslaughter legislation and then go on to having interdepartmental negotiations in keeping with all our joined-up government.”” Perhaps after I have been long retired from Parliament, I might witness our successors beginning to debate this matter seriously.