Armed Forces Bill

My Lords, certainly there were two grounds upon which the European Court held. The first was in relation to the complaint that a 17 year-old civilian boy had been tried before a court martial—that that was highly undesirable and did not result in a fair trial. Secondly, since it preceded the case referred to, the Court held that it was also procedurally wrong. The advances that have been made in court martials, in trying to bring them up to date, have been made as a result of defence applications to the European Court—decisions of the European Court which the Government have been forced to follow. The Minister says that our aim is to achieve a military system of justice equivalent to the civilian system. It could have been achieved in this Bill if the Government had listened to the advice of the Judge Advocate General in important respects and accepted some of the amendments. The Minister says that investigations by the service police abroad would be at least doubtful. As your Lordships are well aware, service police do not have the highest track record in the investigation of crime. In numerous cases of which your Lordships are aware, the service police have fallen down and acquittals have followed. The system was second best. It could have been made equivalent to the Crown Court system but that opportunity has been missed. In this matter, the extension of jurisdiction over offences committed in this country to the court martial and the removal of cases from the Crown Court clearly impact on an individual defendant’s rights—his right to be tried by his peers instead of appearing in front of a panel of officers. The combination of disciplinary charges and serious offences put forward by the Minister presents no argument. He himself has said that there were disciplinary offences in one case charged in Canada, but the serious offence was dealt with by the civil court in this country. As for somebody raping a lady abroad and then raping the same lady in this country, we all know that even though he might not be tried for the rape abroad, all the evidence in relation to it would be admissible on a trial in this country on a basis of similar facts, a similar system or whatever—certainly under some of the legislation passed by this Government in the past three years. The reasons for extending jurisdiction have simply not been made and I cannot accept the Minister’s explanations. However, I pay tribute to him for the way that he has conducted this Bill—he has done a tremendous job in keeping us informed as things go along. There is no personal criticism involved, but I do not accept his arguments and I seek to obtain the opinion of your Lordships’ House. On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 4) shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided: Contents, 63; Not-Contents, 165.