Police and Justice Bill

My Lords, I am not a lawyer. I think that I am the only person to speak who has no legal training, but, as they say, law is too important a matter to be left to lawyers and this matter has social, philosophical and economic aspects that involve us all. I supported the Government in the initial vote. I think that the noble Baroness will confirm that I was a lone voice—perhaps a rather surprising one—among the Labour Peers in giving her my warm support. I am afraid that, when I heard the speeches from the opposition Benches, I was much influenced by the famous remark of Tom Paine in The Rights of Man: "““He pities the plumage, but forgets the dying bird””." We had a great deal of legalistic plumage that was stroked and admired, but the point is that there are new kinds of international and global crimes from which we need legal and other protection. I make three points. The first has already been made and I am delighted to be on the same side as my noble friend and former pupil, Lord Anderson, who spoke with great wisdom, as he always does, on the considerable improvements that have been gained by the noble Baroness. Frankly, it would then seem to be totally absurd to erect the much higher and, as my noble friend Lord Richard said, totally impossible barrier of trying to negotiate a new treaty. That is not a serious proposition in the real world of politics, nor, I suspect, in the real world of the law, although I sometimes wonder where that is located. However, there have been improvements. Many of the apprehensions initially expressed seemed to be ludicrous and have been disproved. It was said that these people would not get bail, and they have. It was said that there would be various objections in the courts and, in fact—although the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, regretted it—the courts have repeatedly supported the Government’s position. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, did, however, make one valuable point, as he frequently does, and I again support him on this—the need for parliamentary ratification of treaties. That is not centrally germane to this debate, but it is crucial. I believe in a written constitution and that the role of Parliament should absolutely be underlined in it. Be that as it may, under the present circumstances we have had real progress. The Minister deserves the support of these Benches. Secondly, as I briefly indicated, we have different kinds of crime. Without proper extradition arrangements agreed by countries, global crime—crimes committed in the context of international capitalism—will simply not be dealt with. We need practical arrangements. The legal system must move on, just as international crime moves on. The globalisation of the world economy affects the globalisation of crime, and we must have robust arrangements. We cannot wait for the Greek calends, or whenever, for a fundamental renegotiation of these treaties. Finally, there was a great deal of patronising observation about the United States of America—although certainly not from the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart—and its legal system. It was said that the United States did not have our guarantees. I think that my noble friend Lord Anderson would agree with me that some of the observations were unhistorical. The United States in many ways has a good record on openness and swiftness of justice. As a historian, I know that the American trusts dealt with the problems of financial concentration. The giant Standard Oil of New Jersey was brought to book and dissolved as early as 1913, I think. You can go back to legislation passed in the aftermath of the Civil War—the United States is well equipped to deal with these matters. It is noticeable that the absolute capitalist scandal of Enron was dealt with in the United States; I wonder whether our authorities, which have an extraordinary record, would have been able to do the same. Last time we were discussing the issue, people suggested that these crimes should be discussed in the British system because we would get a decision. I remember thinking at the time that there was as much chance of the England football team winning on a penalty shoot-out. Our record is pathetic, and I welcome the fact that we have been given this new tool. To talk about the United States as somehow inferior to some of the other countries with which we have legal arrangements is grotesque. Why should we say that we have total confidence in the procedures of some of these countries in eastern Europe, but that the United States—and, even worse, the state of Texas—is somehow beyond the pale? I congratulate the Government. I would have congratulated the Minister before, had I the nerve to do so, but I do so with renewed zest. We need a more robust international approach to law. Incidentally, the suggestion was made that this would be disastrous for our foreign policy as well. As one who is well known as a great critic of the war in Iraq and the American stance there, I believe that to gratuitously insult the Americans over the integrity of their legal system and history, and to somehow pretend that they can rapidly alter their assumptions about law and their legal procedures, would cause reasonable offence. I hope that, at least on these Benches, the Government will be strongly supported.