Police and Justice Bill

As ever, the noble Baroness has managed to say something that almost makes us all roll over and say, ““Well, she is absolutely right on that so she must be right on the rest””—but not quite. We have had a long debate on core issues, but there are some simple principles involved here. I am grateful to the noble Baroness for saying that on some issues she will look again at the detail, but I am still very concerned about some of the matters that remain unresolved. There remains the core matter of how much should be in primary and how much in secondary legislation. The noble Baroness has said that she is prepared to listen but that the Government think that the balance is right. I think that it is important that all of us should be able between now and Report to look in detail at whether there should be any shifting of this information into secondary legislation. I still remain deeply concerned about that happening. Certainly there was a great deal of agreement around the Committee that too much was being shifted. That was backed up by the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The noble Baroness quoted from the first half of paragraph 20; the second half—the recommendation—makes it clear that the committee’s first choice would be for these matters to remain in primary legislation. We have a long way to go before Report if we are to achieve a measure of unanimity. The noble Baroness rightly referred to the important way in which police authorities have worked on a consensual basis. I certainly recognise that and I congratulate them on the way in which they have done so. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, was right to point out that there is a genuine dilemma about how you appoint people. Should it be on a geographical basis so that every area feels that it has its person there, or is it a matter of achieving a political balance? The political balance appears to have worked well. There has not been any party political in-fighting and each organisation has worked for the best of its community. I think that a great many of the difficulties that we are about to face with the size of police authorities and how they function in the future with the new type of membership will be due to the Government’s determination to merge police forces. Police authorities will cover much larger areas and therefore, automatically, there will be smaller areas which feel, ““Excuse me, we are being left out””—divisiveness may arise as a result of a geographical feeling of being omitted. So there is a genuine dilemma about how appointments should be made. I certainly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, that, overall, one has to look at how the organisation will function effectively. The amendments that she has brought forward today were especially helpful. Amendments Nos. 23 and 31 were particularly helpful in teasing out the detail of what we need to look at between now and Report. Of course, the Minister said what I expected with regard to magistrates. I will say what she expects: I have listened to the Magistrates’ Association, with which, as a long past magistrate myself, I have great sympathy. I shall not test the opinion of the House today—even though the match has not yet begun and there is still time, I will not do that—because, as ever, when I bring forward amendments that are in response to specific requests from organisations, I refer back to them to seek their advice before I take any further action. But I feel that they have an expertise on which it would be wrong for police authorities to lose out as of right. I feel that there is an overwhelming need for these matters to remain in primary legislation but—picking up from Dr Reid yesterday—I am prepared to listen. However, I think that my destination will remain the same. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. [Amendments Nos. 23 to 38 not moved.]