Animal Welfare Bill

My amendment is linked to the amendment we have been debating. I hope it may be of help to the Committee. Perhaps I can refer to the way dogs are treated. I think everyone who has spoken would work from the premise that you try and persuade an animal to do what it should do in the most gentle way to start with. I do not think there is any question about that. We inherited a Labrador rescue dog which was not big and bold enough to make the working dog she should have been. We have had her for six and half years, and she is still a very nervous dog. Whatever background she came from—and I do not suppose electric collars were in being in those days in the way they are now—a dog’s training makes a huge impression on that dog for the rest of its life, and I bitterly regret the fact that somewhere along the line she had been very ill treated, not only by humans but also by other dogs. She is now much more comfortable with humans, and that is not a problem, but so far as other dogs are concerned she tends to sit down in the road and put her tail between her legs. Quite clearly, her life has not been an easy one. I say that as background. We have had different sorts of dogs over many years. I find this debate fascinating and quite difficult. I wonder if my Amendment No. 64, following on from what my noble friend Lord Soulsby has said, will actually be of help. We are asking to have added to the Bill a provision for the specification of training methods and devices to be used in the training of animals. It may well be that this is something my noble friend’s group might bear in mind when it is doing its research work. All Members of the Committee who spoke earlier who have had difficulty or experienced challenges when training their dogs have ended up nearly being sympathetic towards electronic collars. I will not call them ““shock collars””, because I realise there are clearly different degrees. My worry is that they will only be as good or successful as the person operating them. You could say that everyone will be mild, sensitive and understanding, but unfortunately it is all too easy to activate things to respond in a greater degree than is necessary at that moment. I also appreciate that many dogs are trained to stay within their territory and are acting as guard dogs. If a total ban were brought in I do not know where on earth that would leave them. There is potential for misuse, however, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Soulsby for what his committee proposes to do. Having trained horses and ponies many years ago, I would go from being gently rewarding to taking a quick check if the animal was not responding, so please do not think I am a soft push, because I am not. I do worry, though, about the ability these collars will have if they are not used correctly. I am not suggesting that any noble Lord who has spoken would not use them correctly, but out there is a wider world, and I am not sure how carefully some people might use those bits of equipment. When the Minister comes to respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, I hope he will include Amendment No. 64 in his comments. I found it interesting that the police do not use these collars in their training methods. That was quite an eye-opener for me, as I had not seen any reason why they should not, but there must be some clear reason why they have decided not to do so. While I accept the expressions that have been made by many noble Lords, I have reservations on the use of electric collars, unless it is within a very defined area, which would be extremely difficult to enforce. How could you enforce it, unless you had a total ban? There is a big grey area out there. I suggest that the Minister might well accept Amendment No. 64, which would make provision for the specification of training methods and devices to be used in the training of animals. I also do not want a nanny state, so the issue is quite difficult. Each of us has to decide whether the way we are dealing with our animal constitutes the best welfare possible, and whether we are using things that could be used differently and better. At the end of the day, however, whatever legislation we bring in will be hard to control and observe, and bringing prosecutions will be difficult. I find that worrying.