Animal Welfare Bill

I should like to speak to Amendment No. 13. Amendment No. 12 would provide a total ban on animals performing in circuses, whereas Amendment No. 13 concerns wild animals only. I acknowledge, as the noble Baroness and others have done, that this is a very emotive subject. Many people believe that animals and wild animals should be allowed to be in circuses and to be seen by the public directly. Many argue that it is the only time they have a chance to see some of those animals performing. I take a slightly different view in that I think zoos still have a great part to play. People can go to see animals in zoos, where they are free to roam. They are not trained to perform but are there to be seen in as natural an environment as possible—it is not possible to have a true natural environment. I have concerns about the use of wild animals. This is very much a personal view. When we debate this issue again, as I suspect we shall at Report, there will be a variety of views expressed around the Chamber. But I am particularly concerned about the use of wild animals. I understand that only three out of the remaining 10 British circuses actually use them and I am sure that those who work there do everything they can to ensure the safety and welfare of their animals. I would not like to suggest that our amendment is saying that they are not doing what they should. But concerns are raised from time to time that some facilities and freedoms are not as good as they might be if those wild animals were free. I have one or two specific questions. While I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, for introducing her amendment, I do not share her wish for a total ban on circuses using animals. That makes it more difficult to explain why I am sticking out for banning the use of wild animals only rather than all animals. From a personal, practical point of view, horses and dogs are used in everyday life and are trained in everyday life; I do not see the same problem there as exists with wilder animals, although there could be. The noble Baroness, Lady Miller, said, quite rightly, that when this was debated in the Commons, a commitment was given for some form of regulation. Perhaps the Minister can tell us more about that. The matter was considered by the EFRA Select Committee in the pre-legislative scrutiny to the Bill. The committee expressed concerns that Her Majesty’s Government’s proposals did not go far enough to protect wild animals used in circuses and commented that Defra should state the difference between the use of wild animals and the use of domesticated animals in circuses, with a view to prohibiting wild animals and licensing domestic ones. It stated:"““The welfare needs of wild animals are obviously very different from those of domestic animals, and more difficult for circuses—which are, by their nature, itinerant—to meet””." The heart of the problem lies in the fact that many of those circuses—particularly on the Continent, although we are not considering the Continent with this Bill, which deals with the UK—are travelling. It is more difficult to impose welfare regulations on a body that is often on the move. The debate in another place and here has focused on whether animals should or should not be used in circuses. My ban would be different from the ban of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, in that it would prohibit only wild animals in circuses. I gather that such a provision already exists in several countries, including Austria, Israel, Costa Rica and Singapore. I have some questions for the Minister. If the Bill stands as it is and is not altered and circuses visit this country, would the rules that affect us be different from those that people are used to overseas? The feedback that I have had from people who have followed this aspect of the Bill is that the welfare side of circuses is not as readily observed overseas as it is over here. We would be very interested to hear from the Minister about what is happening on the international front. Again, I quote from Ben Bradshaw. He said:"““I sympathise with the view that performances by some non-domesticated species in travelling circuses are not compatible with meeting their welfare needs””." Clearly, the Minister at the time recognised that there were difficulties. He continued that,"““a regulation . . . will provide much needed clarity to both circus proprietors and””—" more important—"““enforcers on which animals’ needs can be met adequately””.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/3/06; cols. 1401-02.]" How far have the Government got with their consideration of regulations? Presumably, before they bring any regulations before this Chamber or another place, they would go out to consultation. Has that process already begun or are we just at the embryonic stage of thinking behind this aspect of the Bill? Will the Government consider looking at wild or exotic animals separately from what I would call domesticated animals within circuses? If so, how long will this consultation take to come into being? Have the Government so far thought of writing any regulations? Clearly, if no regulations are prepared as yet, we will need to return to the matter at a later stage. I realise that this is a very difficult issue. I am not belittling it. There are those who are in favour of having animals in circuses and those who are not. I assure noble Lords that were the matter to go to a vote—which obviously it cannot today as we are in Grand Committee; I wish to make it clear that there is no vote—it would very much be a free-vote issue for our party and, I am sure, for all parties. I think that I have sufficiently explained our amendment. I listened carefully to what the noble Baroness said to hers and I look forward to the Minister’s response.