Identity Cards Bill

I say yet again to the noble Lord that I do not think they are necessary. I can reassure him that it will not be possible for people to enter into what might be described as a fishing expedition, and I understand his concern about that. I shall explain how the clause works and in so doing reassure him that his anxiety in this regard is not merited. The provision of a public service may be linked to the identity card scheme in the two ways we have spoken about already. The first way would be to forge such a link by using a power in an existing enactment which relates specifically to the public service concerned. Where no such power exists, the second way would be to use Clause 15 of the Bill to make regulations. Those are the two ways. Clause 17 enables information recorded in the register to be provided to public service providers for the purpose of ascertaining, as the noble Lord rightly said, or verifying registrable facts about a person applying for services. The noble Baroness is right: that is the same phrase we use in Clause 1. Clause 17(1)(a) refers to public services which have been linked to identity cards under Clause 15. Clause 17(1)(b) refers to public services which have been linked to identity cards under another enactment. Amendment No. 192 would remove Clause 17(1)(b) and therefore the ability of the Secretary of State to provide information recorded in the register to public service providers who have forged a link with identity cards other than through the power under Clause 15. So it would remove the second limb I have just outlined. Where a public service provider has existing powers which could be exercised in order to require identity card and/or NIR checks, it makes sense for that power to be relied on, for example, by amending existing regulations. The power under Clause 15 is intended as a fall-back provision where public service providers do not have the necessary power elsewhere in legislation. There is no reason why public service providers which rely on existing powers to forge a link with identity cards should be treated differently under Clause 17 from public service providers who rely on Clause 15. That would be the effect of Amendment No. 192. It may be helpful at this point to clarify that the purpose of Clause 17 is to ensure that public service providers are able to check that those applying for services are in fact entitled to those services. It will also mean that individuals have a convenient means of demonstrating their entitlement to public services. I can reassure the Committee that Parliament will have oversight of any regulations tabled because, as noble Lords will remember, Clause 17 is subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Amendment No. 193 has the effect that the Secretary of State may not make regulations authorising a person providing a public service to be provided with information from the register for the purpose of ascertaining—I emphasise that—registrable facts about the individual. The public service provider would be entitled to be provided with information from the register only for the purpose of verifying registrable facts about an individual. I understand that the noble Lord would like to separate those two categories. That would be impractical and would limit the effectiveness of Clause 17 and its convenience to the individual. Amendment No. 193 would impact on the ability of the scheme to provide a flexible service to the citizen and reduce bureaucracy within public services. In appropriate circumstances, it is envisaged that an individual could produce an ID card and consent for a public service to ascertain relevant information about him or her from the register, rather than being required to fill in a form and providing information that would then be verified against the register. Indeed, it would be a particularly convenient service when a person is asked to provide information that may be on the register but that he or she may not know instantly or have to hand—for instance, one’s national insurance number. Many people know their national insurance number by heart. But some of us do not and I should make a full and frank disclosure in that regard myself. Finally, to reiterate what I said a moment ago, plans to conduct such services would be laid out in regulations under Clause 17, which will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and therefore overseen by Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, was troubled earlier about why we have to ask for both ID card and other evidence. I should like to clarify the position because it feeds into this debate. It may be necessary in some circumstances to check that the person with the card is really the holder and not, for example, his identical twin or an impostor. There are a number of identical twins and we may therefore ask, for example, for a PIN number. We envisage that individuals will have a PIN number which they can use to verify that they are who they say they are, or we may use a biometric, such as a fingerprint, to obtain confirmation. Both the noble Lord and the noble Baroness have been concerned about ““ascertain””. Let me verify that the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, did not table an amendment to remove ““ascertain”” from Clause 1(3)(b). I could not recall that he had—the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, could not recall that he had either—and therefore I assure him that he did not. There will be circumstances in which it is in the public interest to ascertain facts—for example, when the police wish to match a fingerprint left at the scene of a serious crime but no match can be made with the police national computer records and information. It is clearly important for us to be able to ““ascertain”” in such cases in order to deliver on the criminal justice agenda and to bring those who may have committed offences to justice. The noble Lord asked, too, about what information will be provided. Regulations under Clause 17 will make different provisions for different public services, and only the information relevant to the rules of entitlement will be provided. I hope with that additional elucidation the noble Lord and the noble Baroness will feel content.