Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [HL]

The common thread running through the amendments is that they appear to be aimed at broadening the type of body that may be added to Schedules 2 and 3. It may assist noble Lords if I set out the Government’s general view on the issue of bodies that should, appropriately, be subject to the commissioner’s powers in Clauses 3 and 5 and, consequently, be listed in Schedules 2 or 3. I should reiterate that this view is shared by the Assembly. Amendments Nos. 42 and 65 would enable the Assembly to add a person to the list of bodies in Schedule 2 or Schedule 3 respectively, where less than half of their funding is met directly from payments made by the Assembly. The requirement that at least half of a person’s expenditure on the discharge of their functions in relation to Wales is met directly from payments made by the Assembly is one of four eligibility criteria set out in Clauses 4(2) and 7(2). The purpose of the criteria is to ensure that a person added to either of the schedules is similar in nature to those persons already listed in it; that is, they are public bodies exercising public functions in Wales and are funded in the main by the Assembly. Amendments Nos. 42 and 65 would widen the Assembly’s power to add bodies to Schedule 2 and Schedule 3 to include those for whom the Assembly was not the main financial sponsor in Wales. That would enable the Assembly to bring within the commissioner’s remit bodies that received funding in the main from the UK Government. It would also make redundant Clauses 4(3) and 7(3). Amendments Nos. 43 and 67, as well as Amendment No. 66, would remove the requirement set out in Clauses 4(3) and 7(3), that the Assembly must obtain the Secretary of State’s consent to add a person to Schedule 2 or Schedule 3, where at least half of that person’s expenditure on the discharge of its functions in relation to Wales is not met directly from payments made by the Assembly. The purpose of the requirement is to recognise that, although only public bodies exercising public functions in Wales and funded in the main by the Assembly may be added to Schedule 2 or 3 by the Assembly, it may, on occasion, be appropriate for the Assembly to bring within the commissioner’s remit a public body that receives at least half of its expenditure on its devolved functions in Wales from the UK Government rather than the Assembly—in other words, a UK body. If a body receives more than half its funding in relation to Wales from the UK Government, in our view it is appropriate that the Secretary of State’s consent should be sought before it can be added to the schedule because its line of accountability is to the government department and its Ministers. The Government would not wish to lose the flexibility that Clauses 4 and 7 provide to enable a UK-wide body exercising functions in Wales to be brought within the commissioner’s remit. A number of interesting questions were raised during our brief discussion. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, asked why we had to seek the consent of the Secretary of State. If the requirement to seek the Secretary of State’s consent were removed, it would widen the Assembly’s power in the same way as Amendments Nos. 42 and 65 would. Thus, for example, the Assembly would be able to add to Schedules 2 and 3 bodies that received funding in the main from UK Governments. In answer to the question from my noble friend Lord Rowlands, I say that the idea has a pedigree in the children’s commissioner legislation, and that will be followed for this Bill. As I have explained, it is set at 50 per cent or more to deliver a body that is a majority public sector body, and other bodies can be added with the consent of the Secretary of State to preserve democratic accountability for that body. I have already dealt with the question of the 50 per cent restriction. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, asked why the Bill would need so many regulations. The Bill has been subjected to intensive democratic scrutiny in Wales by the Assembly, and if the noble Lord is looking for a gap, I can tell him that it does not exist. Tremendous work has been done in Wales in terms of its background and of consultation.