Identity Cards Bill

I certainly agree that this has been a forthright and robust debate. In my own way I have greatly enjoyed it but I am not sure whether it has been as illuminating as I first thought. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, has made plain on several occasions, it is extremely important that Members of your Lordships’ House as part of this process have the opportunity to ask the robust questions to which they seek answer. We all recognise that there is a degree of concern about ID cards and the creation of a national register. I have not had the benefit of the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Gould, in testing opinion in such a scientific way or even of earwigging into focus groups. However, when I was campaigning during the general election—the general election has been raised in this debate—I confess that I probably raised the issue of ID cards on fewer than half a dozen occasions. I spent a lot of time speaking to many hundreds and probably thousands of electors during the run-up to the election. I cannot recall anyone challenging me or the Labour Party on the grounds that we would fundamentally infringe human liberty because we were considering introducing an ID card. My most recent test of opinion on the subject was from a taxi driver who recently took me to the station. He said, ““What are you off to the House of Lords to do today, Guv?””. I said, ““I am going to sit in on the Second Reading of the ID cards Bill””. He said, ““Oh, that’s an interesting idea. I’ve got loads of ID on me. If you fancy, my Lord, I will go through them with you as we travel””. I was quite intrigued by that. He got out his card relating to his ability to drive his taxi. He said, ““I’ve got a credit card. I’ve got other cards, my Lord. I’ve got a card for me leisure club. I’ve got a card for me bank. I’ve got me Visa card. They’ve got loads of information on them. I’ve heard this argument about ID cards on Radio 4 and, frankly, I don’t understand what it’s about. I think it’s a really good idea. I think it’s very helpful””. I do not regularly patronise that taxi driver but I know him fairly well, and he reckons that ID cards are a good idea. They would help him to go about his business. And opinion polls seem to tell us that the majority of people feel the same. Members of the Committee are right to enter caveats about opinion polls—but they are not far wrong. They did not get the general election outcome very wrong; they got it pretty precisely right. I think that the public are behind this proposal. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, they are concerned about the long-term implications of cards and they want to know how they will work. As the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, said, the public are not fools. They are genuinely interested in the implications of a national identity card and a register. I am not sure that the debates in your Lordships’ House will fundamentally shatter public confidence in the basic concept advanced today. My suspicion is that people will listen and take note and that they will in good measure be reassured by what the Government are attempting to achieve. I think that they will appreciate that we are spending time putting the proposition together and implementing it. The issue of cost and all of those arguments have been raised. However, my contact with Home Office officials and those involved in the Bill suggests that, as with any Bill of this complexity, a great deal of careful thought and preparation has gone into it. No doubt that will develop and expand during the Bill’s passage through Parliament and as we seek to introduce the ID card system. I refute the argument that the national identity register will be a form of surveillance. One cannot see it as a form of surveillance in the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has identified it. One has to understand that the information which may be held on the register is strictly limited by the Bill. As Members of the Committee have said, the information that will be required is listed very carefully in Schedule 1. It includes limited amounts of personal information, such as name and address and date and place of birth. Only Parliament will be able to amend the information that can be held under the scheme. In a sense, as my taxi driver pointed out a week or two ago and Members of the Committee said today, a whole range of information about us is already held by private sector and voluntary organisations as wide-ranging as telephone companies, credit reference agencies and supermarkets. According to a survey, as of August 2004, 60 per cent of UK consumers—26.8 million people—hold loyalty cards. To apply, a customer has to satisfy a number of questions including marital status, size of household and type of car. When a purchase is made and completed, information about what the customer bought, the cost, and where and how he or she paid for it is registered on a databank profile of that person’s purchase history. That information goes far beyond anything that the ID cards register would ever be allowed to hold by law.