Charities Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am sympathetic to what the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbots, has said, and to my fellow practitioners in the field of charity law. I have two or three questions I would like to address to the noble Lord. First, Amendment No. 84 is drafted on the basis that this definition will apply for the purposes of this Act. It seemed to me from the way in which he introduced his amendment that he would really want the meaning of ““permanent endowment””, as in Amendment No. 84, to apply for the purposes of charity law generally. There could be a problem if it applies for the purposes of this Bill but not beyond it. Secondly, it states in Amendment No. 84 that it will not be permanent endowment other than,"““by virtue of a clear and express intention to that effect at the time that such property was acquired by the charity””." I wonder whether using the word ““intention”” there does not give rise to considerable uncertainty. That would mean that it would not be enough to rely upon a deed of gift; one would need to see whether or not there was a letter to the charity, accompanying the deed of gift, saying ““My intention, of course, is that you should keep this for ever””, or words to that effect. That would undo the purpose behind this otherwise admirable amendment. Finally, is it the noble Lord’s intention that, if passed, this amendment would be effective for past gifts? Would it have the effect of translating existing permanent endowment into non-permanently endowed assets? I would be grateful if the noble Lord could enlighten the House when I sit down. If, as he said, the law was hitherto clear as to what permanent endowment was, albeit on a negative basis, there would be many donors in the past who, on the basis of the law as it then stood, would have made gifts which they intended to be held as permanent endowment and which are held as permanent endowment but which, by reason of the amendment, would cease to be held as permanent endowment. That does not seem to me to be a satisfactory or fair state of affairs, but I put those points forward in a constructive spirit, merely designed to make the amendment shockproof.