Charities Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 69:"Page 111, line 21, leave out from ““subject”” to end of line 22 and insert ““immediately prior to conversion””" The noble Lord said: My Lords, I hope that this amendment is clear and that the Government are inclined to accept it. Perhaps I should explain to the House that this affects a provision in the Bill relating to the conversion of charitable companies and charitable industrial and provident societies into charitable incorporated organisations, or CIOs. Broadly, the subparagraph, which my amendment seeks to amend, states that converting from a charitable company, or registered society as it is called, into a CIO does not let debtors off the hook, or rather—I beg your Lordships’ pardon—does not prejudice creditors. That is the point. Although the Act provides an automatic transfer of the assets of the charitable company or the registered society to the CIO, you do not leave behind the poor old creditors. My ““grouse”” with subparagraph (9) as it is drafted is that the words that I seek to delete seem to me not only to add nothing to that intent, but actually to confuse it. At present subparagraph (9) states that the transfer will have no effect on,"““any liability to which the company or registered society was subject by virtue of its being a charitable company or registered society””." However, one does not owe a debt to someone by reason of being who one is but by reason of having incurred the debt. Those seem to me to be muddling and confusing words which can only be a hostage to future interpretation. My amendment would add the concept that liabilities immediately prior to the conversion are carried over into the new CIO. However, I would be ready to forgo those words if the words that I seek to delete are deleted. I beg to move.