Criminal Defence Service Bill [HL]

I should say to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, the clarity I sought was due to ignorance on my part, not because the situation was unclear. But, as the noble and learned Lord will know, sometimes at the Dispatch Box one does not always have all the information that one would wish. However, I hope that I can at least address the question from the Government’s perspective today and that noble Lords will have the opportunity to reflect further upon that. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland has taken us through the process, in a sense. As noble Lords know, on 17 July 2003, by Order in Council, the office of the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs was created and a number of areas of responsibility were assigned to it, including legal aid. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, referred to various parts of the Order in Council. I know that not all noble Lords will have copies of the order with them. We shall ensure that we mark up the relevant parts and that noble Lords receive them. I refer the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, to Schedule 2, ““Consequential Amendments””. Paragraph 11 states:"““In the Access to Justice Act 1999, for ‘Lord Chancellor’ substitute ‘Secretary of State’ in each place””," and subsection (f) states:"““in Schedules 1, 3 and 8””." I think that covers the point raised by the noble Lord. He and I may need to discuss the matter further to ensure that that deals with his point but, as far as the Government are concerned, that responsibility was transferred across by Order in Council. The Bill amends the Access to Justice Act as it now stands and not of course as it stood when it was first put into statute six years ago. Therefore, the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs holds a logical position within that. Noble Lords have raised a broader question within the debate about where the responsibility for legal aid should sit. As I recall, it was not so long ago that it sat with the Home Secretary in   the Home Office. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, nods his head. It was some years ago. The Government’s present position is that it is absolutely right and proper that we should have the differential between the role of the Lord Chancellor—which is very clear in terms of the judiciary and courts—and legal aid, which we believe properly sits with the Secretary of State for Constitutional Affairs. Noble Lords may wish to return to this particular issue but I hope that I have clarified the current position and where that position comes from in terms of the Order   in Council. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, at this stage at least, will feel able to withdraw his amendment.