I thank the noble Lord, although I think my point stands. Throughout the passage of the Bill—in response to criticisms, when it was brought from the other place, that the Secretary of State had too many powers vested in him—we have sought to divest powers and to strengthen the independence of the commission. Whichever procedure is used in this House, this amendment seems to me to be running in the opposite direction. I also remind the House that the Bill already contains a provision in Clause 35 requiring the Secretary of State to review the performance of the new commission by the end of its third year of operation.
I turn next to the issue of conditional immunity, which I readily accept is the most difficult and challenging element of this legislation, but which, in the view of this Government, is essential if the new processes which the legislation establishes are to have a chance of working. I am grateful as always to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, for his alternative proposal, instead of insisting on the wholesale removal of conditional immunity. Having been passed in your Lordships House by 12 votes, this was decisively overturned in the elected House by 92 votes—far more that the Government’s actual majority in the other place. As I have said, conditional immunity is, in this Government’s view, an important mechanism to help the independent commission to fulfil its functions.
I briefly remind the House that the aim of the Bill is simple and straightforward: to provide more information to more people in a shorter timeframe than is possible under current mechanisms, to establish the facts of what happened to the families who wish for that, and to help society both to remember the past and to look forward to a more genuinely shared future.
I understand that the aim of Amendment 44E in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, is to give family members a role in whether immunity should be granted. In the Government’s considered view, that would critically undermine the effectiveness of these provisions in their principal aim: the recovery of information for families. For example, the “public interest” consideration element in condition D would lead to uncertainty as to the circumstances in which immunity will be granted, undermining the clear and transparent approach that we have sought to develop.
To ensure that the commission can obtain as much information for families as possible, we need to ensure that the right incentives are in place for individuals to come forward and provide that information. The possibility that eligible individuals who co-operate fully with the commission could be prevented from obtaining immunity is highly likely to act as a significant disincentive for individuals to disclose information.
As the House is well aware from our numerous debates over many months, the commission will grant immunity from prosecution only if individuals provide an account that is true to the best of their knowledge and belief. We have developed a more robust test for immunity in which that account must be tested against
any information that the commission holds or can access. The commission must, as a result of amendments in your Lordship’s House, take reasonable steps to secure additional information needed to test the truthfulness of an account.
If an individual does not provide a truthful account of their actions that could be passed to families or does not participate in the immunity process at all, immunity will not be granted and that individual will remain liable for prosecution, should the evidence exist. Where prosecution takes place, should a conviction be secured, an individual will not be eligible for the early release scheme under the Northern Ireland (Sentences) Act 1998—again, as a result of amendments in this House.
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Similarly, while I acknowledge the sentiment behind introducing the so-called licence conditions again under Amendment 44E, I respectfully suggest that the Government have sought to address these issues through amendments that were agreed on Report. They send a clear message that, once immunity is granted, individuals who are convicted of offences that could impede reconciliation will lose that immunity. In our view, that approach strikes the right balance between providing sufficient certainty regarding the effect of a grant of immunity and ensuring that there are appropriate consequences for those whose behaviour after being granted immunity is not compatible with the fundamental aims of this legislation. The alternative tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, would not support an effective information recovery process, and I therefore ask that the noble Lord does not insist on his Motion B1.
Lastly, the legislation as originally introduced gave the Secretary of State a power to write in the date for “the relevant day” in respect of the cessation of inquests and criminal investigations. However, the clarity brought forward by amendments on Report removed the requirement for defining “the relevant day”. Amendment 119A is therefore entirely technical in nature and seeks to remove that power as it is no longer necessary.
I express my gratitude for the manner in which noble Lords across the House have engaged with, scrutinised and sought to improve the Bill. I pay particular tribute to the Opposition for their patience and encouragement. I add, as I was unable to do at Third Reading, my thanks to officials who have worked tirelessly behind the scenes and put in an incredible amount of work on this legislation. My thanks go to them, to parliamentary counsel for the standard and quality of amendments that they drafted and to the officials in the NIO and Whitehall who have worked on the Bill.
In conclusion, I ask noble Lords not to insist on Motions A1 and B2 and instead to agree with the Commons in their amendments in lieu under Motions A, B and C. I beg to move.
Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)