My Lords, I will speak primarily to my Motion B2, which I will move and seek to test the opinion of the House on. In doing so, I very much agree with some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. We have arrived at a place where I and, I suspect, many in this Chamber would not wish to be. In other words, frankly, suspicionless stop and search should not be in the Bill.
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We tried to take Clause 11 out. The Government reinserted it. We have opposed suspicionless stop and search throughout the passage of the Bill—and still do. The practical and pragmatic reality is what to do about it. My Motion B2 tries to restrict the use of suspicionless stop and search and to ensure that there is at least greater proportionality within it. Is that totally where I want to be? No. Is that a brilliantly principled position where I go down to glorious defeat? No. Is it the practical, political reality of where we are? I would argue yes. That is why I am moving Motion B2, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and all Members will know from our previous debates, I fundamentally believe that Clause 11 should not be in the Bill.
I do not want to speak for long, but this point deserves repeating. How has it come to the point where His Majesty’s Government seek to introduce suspicionless stop and search for protest-related offences? Every other debate on suspicionless stop and search has concerned the most serious circumstances—either to try to prevent people shooting, stabbing or murdering one another, or to prevent terrorism. Even in those circumstances, there has been significant debate both in the other place and here about the proportionality of one of the most significant powers that we can give to our police officers.
Each and every noble Lord can only imagine walking down the street to be stopped by a police officer and searched without reason. As relatively mature individuals, we appreciate that in no circumstances would the police do this if there was not good reason, even if we did not realise it, but I suspect that even many of us would object to it. But certainly, as the noble Lord,
Lord Paddick, rightly reminded us, if you are young and black, young and in an ethnic minority, or young in a disadvantaged community where there is already distrust between police and public, one can only imagine the circumstances. Why are we doing it? It is because of protests. It is completely and utterly disproportionate and over the top. It is another of the panicked responses in this Bill to the protests by Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion. On numerous occasions, we have said those were of course unacceptable, but let us not undermine one of the fundamental democratic principles of this country to go about one’s business without interference in order to try to deal with that. How on earth is that proportionate or something the Government would wish to do? It is simply not the case.
Ideally, I would wish to take Clause 11 out of the Bill, by my Motion B2 recognises where we are. There may be disappointment about me or about the position which I think is correct to have arrived at, but I hope that people at least understand why I have arrived at that point. I would do anything to get rid of Clause 11, and I have tried to do so. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and I—and many others—have failed. The Government have not shifted. I have tabled a reasonable amendment. If the Government will not shift on suspicionless stop and search and are keeping it in the Bill, at least let them restrict it, narrow the scope or do something to make it less disproportionate.
The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, paraded as a great thing the inclusion of the following words in Clause 11:
“This section applies if a police officer of or above the rank of inspector reasonably believes”.
Even if they want Clause 11, an inspector is not a senior enough rank to do that. We can argue whether chief superintendent is a senior enough rank. I am sure there are serving police officers who would say, “No, that is not consistent”—as the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, has done—“It is not consistent with X; it should be an assistant chief constable, a commander or whatever.” I say to the Chamber that the principle I am putting forward in my amendment is that a very senior police officer needs to make that decision.
I am narrowing the scope of Clause 11 by taking out subsection (1)(ii), which deals with intentionally or recklessly causing a public nuisance. That does not prevent the stop and search power of a police officer who has reasonable suspicion. If they reasonably believe something, the police officer can stop anyone. This is trying to narrow the scope by saying, “Do not do it if there is no suspicion. Do not do it if you just think something has happened.” It will not be a load of people who look like me who get stopped and searched. That is why I have done that.
On reducing the time from 24 to 12 hours, someone said to me that it should have been 10 hours. I have not done a scientific survey to come up with 12. My point is that I want to restrict its scope, so I propose reducing 24 to 12. Somebody may say it should be six, it should be four—I do not know—but at least it would restrict the scope, which is what I have done.
Clause 11(5), which is where there is a revised memorandum because of a miscommunication, states:
“If it appears to a police officer of or above the rank of superintendent that it is necessary”
for renewal of the suspicionless stop and search area. The Government are saying that it should be a super- intendent; I am saying it should be a chief superintendent. You can argue that it should be an assistant chief constable. My point is that for renewal, I do not think that superintendent is a significant enough rank; it should be higher. That may indeed be an assistant chief constable, but I have just added the word “chief” to make it a chief superintendent.
To be fair, the Minister has been good enough to say that he sort of agrees with Amendment 6F, which states:
“The chief superintendent must take reasonable steps.”
That is so important. The noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, gave me the idea by saying that from his policing experience one thing he thought was a problem, whatever you think of suspicionless stop and search, is making sure that the public are aware of what you are doing. That is difficult. I am not saying it is easy or how you do it, but there should be an attempt to do it. The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said that some police forces do it and there is some good practice. I say: put it in the Bill and make it a statutory requirement that, if the police are to use one of the most draconian powers we give them, they must take all “reasonable” steps to inform the public of what is going on.
We can only imagine it, when the Public Order Bill becomes an Act and, outside this place, there have been protests and the Government or the police disagree with them because they are more than minor. A “more than minor” disruption occurs and, alongside that, we get suspicionless stop and search, because we have chucked out my amendment to make it “significant” and it is just “more than minor”. The police think, “It is more than minor disruption; we had better have suspicionless stop and search” and introduce it around Parliament. MPs, Peers, members of staff, members of the police coming into work, catering staff and others could all be subject to search without suspicion. How would you feel? How would I feel?
Honestly, it is a completely and utterly disproportionate clause. Really, it should be wiped out of the Bill, but we have failed; the Government will not listen. Perhaps they will listen to Motion B2 and at least we will have some more proportionality in it, but we will see. With that, I beg to move.