My Lords, this is probably the most important group of amendments we are considering today, because it is absolutely at the heart of the building safety scandal that started nearly five years ago with the loss of 72 people in the Grenfell fire. I always think it is worth remembering that: 72 people died and the lives of many families were changed for ever, and that happened because of systemic and long-term failures in the construction industry.
It is also worth remembering that leaseholders since that time have found themselves under the enormous pressure of anxiety when they receive invoices, maybe for £100,000 or more. Some of them have not been able to cope with that level of anxiety, thinking that nothing would change, and have chosen bankruptcy as a consequence and therefore lost everything they had saved and worked for. For some whom I have heard about, sadly, this pressure may have contributed to something even worse: in the face of the bills and a long dark tunnel with no solution, they ended their lives. That is the backdrop. That is the tragic impact this has had on individuals across the country, and which has brought us to this place. This set of amendments is at the heart of those concerns.
I first raised my worries about leaseholders being liable for all the costs of cladding, removal and remediation of all the fire safety defects when the Fire Safety Bill
was first debated in 2020. Unfortunately, I did not succeed in amending it at that stage, but what has happened since has been remarkable—the number of people on all sides of the House who have taken up the cudgels to argue the case, rightly, for justice for leaseholders. I give enormous credit to the cladding campaigners from all groups and different cities around the country who have got together and done the investigation, found the facts and put the case to the Government, who, to their credit, have listened and made the changes we have seen today. I think there are over 200 government amendments to the Bill today.
The question of justice for leaseholders is still at the heart of the Bill, and I contend that the Government still have not gone far enough in fulfilling what the Secretary of State and the Minister have said: that they should not pay a penny. They have done everything right and nothing wrong. They should not pay anything towards this remediation, because the flammable cladding, sometimes knowingly, was put on buildings, as was exposed in the Grenfell inquiry. Shoddy construction, sometimes deliberate, to cut corners and save costs, has also been exposed during the Grenfell inquiry.
I want to speak to Amendment 156 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stunell, but also to Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and to Amendments 158 and 159 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Young of Cookham and Lord Blencathra, and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, to which I have added my name. They focus on trying to solve the problem of justice for leaseholders, who should not pay a penny.
Unfortunately, the Minister has said today that “the majority” will not pay. Well, if the majority will not pay, the minority will—and the minority should not, because none of this is of their making. My Amendment 156 seeks to establish that what the leaseholder should pay is a peppercorn—a grand, historical way of saying zero, zilch. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, for his support for Amendment 155 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, which uses the word “zero”. I use “peppercorn”, but they get to the same place, and he has acknowledged the justice of this case.
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What the Government are saying, when we met civil servants to help us understand the Government’s position in the light of the amendments that they have tabled, is that they had this cap for those properties above £325,000 in London and £175,000 outside London in order to comply with an interpretation of the European Court of Human Rights, Article 1, Protocol 1 —see what you learn when you get involved in Bills? They said that there has to be a fair balance between the property rights of freeholders, or whatever, and the leaseholders, and therefore that there has to be some payment.
I, of course, always ask the question, so I turned to my noble friend Lord Marks, who has spent a lot of time talking to government lawyers, looking at the evidence and coming to his conclusions. I hope the House will extend the right to my noble friend to explain the interpretation of that element of the ECHR
that has resulted in the Government’s position, because, if the Government will accept the exposition of the ECHR A1P1, they might accept Amendments 155 or 156, that leaseholders should pay nothing. That would be a huge tribute to all those across this House who have worked in different ways to achieve that end. I urge the Government to listen to the legal advice—dare I call it advice? No, I dare not; the legal whatever—to show that we can accept that. As noble Lords know, because I have been saying it for two years now, I feel very strongly that, as a matter of justice—plain, simple justice—that leaseholder should not pay anything.
If the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, moves her Amendment 155, which comes before ours, we will undoubtedly support it, because it achieves what I want to achieve, and I have tried for two years-plus now to get there. If that amendment is not pressed to a vote or is disagreed, obviously we will press ours to a vote. But if those fail to get the support of the House, I will support Amendments 158 and 159, which try to move the barrier of justice closer to zero by halving the cap. Let us do it. They deserve justice from us, if we can get there—and why would we not support that?
There are lots of other amendments in this group but, for me, at the heart of it is the principle. I hope we will now hear from the noble Lord, Lord Marks—if the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, will permit that—so that he can explain why we think that Amendments 155 or 156 are permissible according to the ECHR.