My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken to this group of amendments, and I thank my noble friend Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate for tabling his Amendments 100, 101 and 102.
On the back of my noble friend’s point, it might be helpful to clarify the definitions of “asylum seeker”, “refugee” and “economic migrant.” An asylum seeker is a person, either in transit or awaiting a decision, seeking the protection of a state under the terms of the refugee convention. A refugee is a person who meets the definition of “refugee” in Article 1 of the refugee convention—they do not have to be recognised by a state to be a refugee—and so it follows that a “person with refugee status” is a person who meets the requirements under the UK Immigration Rules to be granted refugee status.
The term “economic migrant” is inexact. It may, of course, refer to a person who is using or looking to use economic routes, such as FBIS, to enter a state. However, there will be people who meet the definition of Article 1 of the refugee convention but are looking to enter the UK and choosing it over other countries purely for economic reasons. One of the objectives of the New Plan for Immigration is to ensure that the most vulnerable can be protected, which in turn means that those attempting to enter the UK for economic reasons should use the appropriate routes.
Changes within Clause 28 via Schedule 3 are one in a suite of critical measures designed to break the business model of people smugglers and are the first
step in disincentivising unwanted behaviours—for example, by dissuading those who are considering risking their lives by making dangerous and unnecessary journeys to the UK in order to claim asylum. By working to establish overseas asylum processing, we are sending a clear message to those who are risking their lives and funding criminal gangs both here and abroad or abusing the asylum system elsewhere that this behaviour is not worth it. We must make it easier to ensure that such people are simply not allowed to remain in the UK.
It also might assist noble Lords—and indeed my noble friend Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate—to know that for nearly 20 years, it has been possible under UK law to remove individuals from the UK while their asylum claim is pending if a certificate is issued under Schedule 3 to the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004, so this is not a new concept. What this measure does is amend our existing legal framework to make it easier to remove such individuals. I do not know which noble Lord asked this, but Schedule 3 also defines the term “safe third country”.
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We will do this by making it possible to remove someone without going through a certification process, providing that the country they are being removed to meets the safety criteria that we have set out in the Bill. Even where we determine that it is generally safe to transfer people from the UK to one of our international partners, every individual in scope for processing overseas will be able to rely on the UK’s obligations under Article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, so as not to be transferred to a country where they would genuinely be at risk of inhuman and degrading treatment, just to answer the point of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton.
We have been open and frank about our intentions to pursue agreements which would enable asylum processing overseas. We are working closely with like-minded partners to fix our broken asylum system and consider how we could work together in the future. My noble friend Lady Stroud talked the other day about our relationship with France, and today about some very positive reports in the press about our progress with France. We have a shared recognition of both the urgency and the magnitude of the situation that we are both facing. We will also discuss all options in the spirit of our close co-operation and partnership. My noble friend is absolutely right: President Macron made comments in the French press last week that indicated that France is aligned with the UK on the need to work together to deter crossings, both to save lives and to stop the criminal gangs.
I do not wish to pre-empt the exact form or content of future arrangements more generally, and I will not be drawn into speculation on whom we are talking to, as this would tie the hands of our negotiators. However, I can assure my noble friend that the bottom line is that this Government will act in accordance with our international obligations. To be clear, this means that we will not seek to transfer anyone overseas for asylum processing where to do so would breach the UK’s obligations under the refugee convention or the ECHR, for example.
I turn now to Amendment 101A, from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. These are matters for the negotiating table. What this clause does is amend our existing legislation to make it easier to transfer someone overseas for their claim to be processed, in the event that we secure an agreement with a like-minded partner. Again, to reassure noble Lords, we will remove an individual only where this can be done in accordance with our international obligations.
We cannot accept Amendment 196, from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, which would not have its intended consequence to limit the Government’s ability to remove people with pending asylum claims. I have already set out how it has been possible, for almost 20 years, to remove individuals from the UK while their asylum claim is pending if a certificate is issued under Schedule 3 to the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004. Therefore, laying before Parliament a policy statement is unnecessary, as we already have the means to remove someone with a pending asylum claim. There is nothing to be gained from Parliament debating legislation pertaining to the removal of people with pending asylum claims, as this legislation is already in force.
I will turn to some other questions. My noble friends Lady Neville-Rolfe and Lord Horam talked about the systems in Australia and Denmark. As I have said on previous occasions, each state will interpret the refugee convention in its own way, as Australia and Denmark clearly have.
My noble friend Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate also asked about the cost to the UK taxpayer, as did other noble Lords. I am afraid I cannot give an approximation as it is a matter for the negotiating table, which I will not prejudice.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham asked about the inhumanity of offshoring. We will continue to uphold our international obligations and ensure that all removals of individuals are compliant with our obligations under Article 3 of the ECHR, which protects against torture and “inhuman or degrading treatment”.
The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, asked about children, women and other vulnerable people. Noble Lords are absolutely right that the Minister made our position clear in Committee and on Report in the Commons. I will not go further than what he said there.