My Lords, first, I thank everyone who has made it possible to get to this group of amendments before the business at 7.30 pm. I repeat the thanks, in which I think all others joined on 15 November, to those families and individuals who have been campaigning but also to Members from across the House. I am deeply grateful for the commitment of people in every group of your Lordships’ House and, I have to say, to those who have stayed this evening on the eve of recess. I hope that, by the time that the Minister has responded, it will be possible to see at least a modest way forward. I shall speak very briefly to allow that to happen in good time, so that we can conclude this debate before 7.30 pm.
6.45 pm
I monitored the Commons Justice Select Committee’s interview yesterday with the Minister of State, Kit Malthouse, whose responsibilities of course bridge the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice, and I have to say that it was a dispiriting experience. That is why what commitments can be given by the Minister tonight will be so important, because, of all those to whom I have spoken in the department—and there have been several, indeed, multiple changes of Secretary of State and of Ministers—I trust and believe that the Minister understands the issues and is committed to trying to find a continuing way forward, and that therefore his word can be trusted.
I have to say that, when I hear comments, as we heard yesterday afternoon in that Select Committee hearing, about the constant recall of prisoners on licence being for their own good and being—I shall use the word that was used—beneficial, my heart sinks. If people, including officials operating in and overseeing the probation service, do not understand what is actually happening to prisoners at the moment and the dispiriting and hopeless nature of what is overcoming them, then we have a hopeless task in getting this right.
A number of forensic psychiatrists and psychologists in the criminal justice field have written to Members, including the Justice Secretary and the Minister, and will be putting evidence again to the Select Committee in the Commons. Their view has changed over the years, and they now believe that what we are doing is making it less likely that people will be able to be rehabilitated, change their behaviour and therefore get out of this terrible revolving door, which on 15 November we all of us across this House understood to be unacceptable and unsustainable. I heard yesterday a concession that there might well be individuals who will never be released, so we can understand why progress must be made.
We have three amendments in this group. The first, which is in my name—and I am grateful for the support for it—can at least in part be dealt with by a recognition that the Government will take seriously the findings of the Select Committee in the other place.
Amendment 81, which substantially deals with the need for automatic referral at each stage of the prisoner journey, can be dealt with, I believe, if the Government are prepared to bring their own amendment back at Third Reading.
Amendment 80, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, for whom I have the most enormous sympathy and empathy, is something that I know, from monitoring what was said by Kit Malthouse yesterday and what has been said to me in my conversations with the Minister, the Government are not prepared—and will not in the Commons be prepared—to move on at this stage in relation to triggering Section 128 of the 2012 Act.
However, I believe sincerely that, if we can make a little progress in taking even small steps, that will set the ball rolling. What has happened with the campaign—with the pressure and the interest on this issue from people not just in this Chamber tonight but right across this House—has transformed the climate and the landscape for going forward. If we can have new guidance and procedures for the probation service, we can start to take seriously what is happening, instead of, as yesterday, mouthing platitudes about an action plan. There is no plan, and there is little action.
Everyone who has provided evidence has shown that the review and the guidance needed for the probation service is desperate. It is not a trimming of the sail—the term used by one of the officials yesterday—but a lifeboat, because these individuals deserve justice. The Minister in Committee in the House of Commons said that this was unjust. I have accepted that it is totally unjust and has worked out in a totally unacceptable way. The Government acknowledging that and taking steps forward will at least give us momentum and start the ball rolling to put this wrong right. I hope that when we hear from the Minister in a few minutes, we can be assured that, as tentative as the steps may be, we are at last making some progress.