I start by wishing my noble friend Lord Mancroft a speedy recovery, and I am sorry he is not here. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Marland for moving his amendment and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, and others for speaking to it.
The amendment seeks to clarify the role and detail of the animal sentience committee. I reassure my noble friend Lord Marland and the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that the Bill already makes it absolutely clear that the only role of the committee is to provide an assessment of the extent to which policy decision-making has considered whether a policy may
“have an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings.”
We are sure that the Bill already makes it clear that the committee will not be authorised to stray into making value judgments, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, just said, on how well a given policy decision balanced the welfare of animals with other matters of public interest. There is no need to specify explicitly in the Bill that it is for Ministers to take other public considerations into account when formulating and implementing policy, because this requirement applies as a matter of course.
Amendment 48 concerns the structure of the committee, criteria for appointments to it and how it is to operate. My noble friend’s amendment raises a number of points about the design of the committee, which I will address in turn. I agree with him about the optimal size of the committee. That is why we have already made it clear that there will be eight to 12 members, working part-time. We want the committee to have everything it needs to do its job well, and its members will be its most important asset. We are committed to ensuring that the committee is large enough to have a suitable breadth of expertise among its members, while not making it so large as to be unwieldy. Of course, the committee will always be able to consult outside experts when needed. Defra’s hosting allows it to be affiliated to the animal welfare centre of expertise and, as I have said, this means there will be enhanced liaison and co-operation between experts.
The committee has the statutory power to issue reports giving its opinion on whether, or to what extent, the Government are having, or have had, all due regard to the ways in which a policy might have an adverse effect on the welfare of animals as sentient beings. The Bill already places a legal duty on Ministers to respond to the committee’s reports within three months of their publication. Once established, it will be for the committee to determine how it fulfils its statutory functions. The draft terms of reference set out how we expect it to work.
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Our approach strikes the right balance between offering clarity about the committee’s role and powers in legislation and allowing it sufficient flexibility. It provides flexibility to update the terms of reference when needed without the need to take up parliamentary time unnecessarily. Our other animal welfare expert committees, including the Animal Welfare Committee and the Zoos Expert Committee, have provided valuable advice to the Government for years without the need to set out their terms of reference in legislation.
Finally, I turn to Amendment 27 from the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull. I am grateful to him for his explanation and the conversations we have had about this. This amendment would require the animal sentience committee to have regard to certain other matters of public interest, such as cultural traditions. It bears repeating that the purpose of the committee is not to make value judgments on the weight that animal welfare should be given in relation to other matters of public interest. That is for Ministers, who are rightly held to account in Parliament. I listened very closely to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. He is obviously well practised in the law and someone to whom I defer, but the balancing factor that existed in European legislation now lies with Ministers. They have the right to say, “We hear what the committee says, but we are going to take other factors into account”, and they could be exactly the concerns voiced by the noble Baroness, Lady Deech.
The reference to certain factors in Article 13 reflects the particular legal order of the European Union, with its complex division of Union and member state competence. The noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, referred to this. There is simply no need to make reference to
the same factors in the Bill. The committee would have to make a value judgment on what it is or is not, and that is not the job of the committee and the Bill does not give the committee such powers. Ministers are responsible for determining the weight to be given to competing considerations when formulating policy in accordance with the rule of law. Nothing in the Bill will affect their ability to do so in the future. The Bill will not require Ministers to give greater weight to animal welfare considerations over other considerations in the public interest.
My noble friend Lord Marland referred to this somehow damaging the livelihoods of fishermen or farmers. It absolutely will not. Ministers are determined to make sure that there are good livelihoods for fishermen and farmers. We listen to noble Lords, and the Bill has been the subject of detailed consideration in this House and outside it. I tried to listen to as many noble Lords giving as many opinions on this as possible. I say to my noble friend absolutely clearly that the Bill does not set standards. I repeat for the third time that it does not make a value judgment. If farmers, fishermen or any other practitioner of rural or marine employment or livelihood are conforming to the norms and good behaviours that lie within their professional activity, they have nothing to fear.
I have never said in this House, in Committee or wherever that the Bill somehow came about as a result of social media. We are concerned about limiting the chance of the legal feeding frenzy that I referred to in Committee. That is why there are only two duties on Ministers: first, to create the committee, and secondly, for Ministers in the departments to which the committee reports to provide an answer within a reasonable period. We will come on to talk about that on a government amendment later.
I say to my noble friend that when I came into Defra in the coalition Government in 2010 there were 93 arm’s-length bodies. When I left in 2013, there were around 33. I absolutely believe in streamlining government wherever possible, but I also believe in good policy, and Ministers are not experts. They require the right advice and the right support at any time.
I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, that I absolutely understand her concerns and those that were so eloquently put by the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, in Committee. However, the rights that she talks about are not going to be decided by the animal sentience committee; they will remain within the policy-making of this and future Governments and it will be the job of Ministers, scrutinised by Parliament, to change any of those forms of slaughter or access to the measures that are of concern to her.
I state clearly for the record that the Bill is about the government policy-making process. It does not change existing law or impose any new restrictions on individuals or businesses. The Government would prefer all animals to be stunned before slaughter, but we respect the rights of members of the Muslim and Jewish communities to eat meat prepared in accordance with their religious beliefs. That is the Government’s policy and it will remain so.
I am concerned that this matter is resolved today. The Government will not be moving any further on this issue or have any more to say ahead of Third
Reading. If the noble Earl wishes to test the opinion of the House, it is absolutely his right to do so, but I say to him, regarding the offer of a meeting involving the Front Benches and my officials to try to resolve this issue, that this is only half the process of this Bill; there is of course the other place for it to go to. I will certainly work with his expertise and the concerns that he and others have brought to try to find a way forward, but I want to resolve this matter today. I hope I have been able to reassure noble Lords and that the noble Earl will feel able to withdraw his amendment.