My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness who has just spoken. It is a pleasure, on this occasion at least, to follow her. I do not necessarily agree with some of the language she used. I do not feel a sense of outrage about this issue. I feel shame and sadness and I agree strongly with the speech of my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, and other noble Lords who have spoken on this issue.
The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, used the term “outlier”. That is what I had scribbled down on the piece of paper in front of me. We are the outliers on this. As the noble Baroness said, in Russia the age of criminal responsibility is much higher. Indeed, the general age of criminal responsibility there is 16, with
14 for exceptionally serious offences. I have visited a number of countries in central and eastern Europe and looked at the way in which young children who have committed serious offences are dealt with, and I do not notice a higher level of disorder in a single one of these countries. I do not know any country with a higher age of criminal responsibility in which children roam the streets committing crime to a greater extent than—very occasionally, fortunately—happens here, and I can see absolutely no empirical reason for turning down this amendment.
I have also observed how children behave when they are sent to Crown Courts. I am happy to note that far fewer children are being dealt with in Crown Courts than used to be the case and that the Crown Prosecution Service is being much more sensitive than it used to be at one time as regards the joinder of children with adults in Crown Court trials. The CPS has recognised that, wherever it is possible, children should be dealt with in the youth court. That has led to a reduction in the number of Crown Court trials.
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However, in individual cases where children as young as 10, 11 or 12 have been tried in the Crown Court, the characteristics of the case are confusion, bemusement and a lack of understanding of what is going on around them. That starts from the beginning. From the moment the word “indictment” is used, those children do not have a clue as to what is going on around them, except that they know that they are in an awful lot of trouble. That is not the fault of the judges, counsel or the solicitors, who make every possible effort to make the court accessible, not just by taking off their wigs and gowns but by changing the language they use. However, if, as I have done from time to time, one sees reports from psychologists or psychiatrists on the effect of those hearings on children, they are really worrying.
Furthermore, as others have said in this Committee debate, there are other measures that are used. All over Europe, there are other methods that are used. They are, to an extent, punitive where appropriate. They are, to an extent, kind where appropriate. They are child protection measures, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, which are used for the benefit not just of the child and the victims of whatever crime has been committed but of society as a whole. Surely our focus should be on producing decent citizens when they become adults. We will, no doubt, turn to that theme later in other amendments when we talk about the education of children in custody.
I say to the Minister who will reply that the responsibility of Ministers dealing with this sort of debate is to specify what gain there is, if any, by having such a low age of criminal responsibility. I think they will struggle.