My Lords, I am grateful for noble Lords’ interest in this issue and for the questions that have been asked. To start with, I say to my noble friend that this is of course a massive increase in scrutiny. When we were a member of the EU, this did not ever come before Parliament; it did not even come before the European Parliament but was dealt with by a committee in the Commission. Everything we are doing is open to all Members of both Houses to scrutinise in the ways in which they ingeniously will, holding Ministers and the Executive to account. There are mechanisms in it, which I will come to in a moment.
I will answer as many of the questions as I can. If I cannot, I will write to noble Lords. My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about the frequency of meetings of the four nations working group. My understanding is that it meets every month, so this is a very regular affair. I will come on to the points my noble friend made about the slight tension between the devolved Governments.
I think my noble friend Lady McIntosh also asked whether SIs are appropriate, whether they are a frequently used vehicle for minor changes in other policy areas, and why they should not be used here if they are used for many minor matters. The changes to lists that would be covered under this updated process would be administrative changes based on technical evaluations; they do not represent a policy change. These include very minor changes to information required about control bodies, such as their name, legal address and other contact details. Although minor, these details are necessary for port health authorities, local authorities and other relevant parties to ensure that the goods in question have been certified in a recognised third country or by a recognised third-country body.
We are aware of a number of cases in which minor changes to a control body’s information have resulted in goods being delayed at a port due to discrepancies between the details on certification documents and in legislation. As such, delays in updating this information in the list could result in a disruption to trade. Without the move to online lists effected by this statutory instrument, any amendment, however small, would be delayed by the time taken for a further SI to go through the legislative process. The faster mechanism introduced by this SI will enable the UK businesses that depend on this to take advantage of new opportunities to trade more quickly. This may provide a competitive advantage over other nations, such as those in the European Union burdened by cumbersome and lengthy processes.
My noble friend and others mentioned that we have legal agreements with 13 countries and 55 control bodies and asked whether updating their lists would be necessary. Yes, we have equivalence agreements with 13 countries, the EU and the EEA states, and 55 control bodies. However, the situation is much more complex in practice because third-country control bodies can certify businesses operating in a number of different countries, with different rules for their operations in each.
Equally, where a third country is recognised as equivalent, the control bodies in that country must also be listed individually. A full list of recognised countries and third-country control bodies runs to over 100 pages, with each page containing significant detail. As we continue to recognise new third countries and third-country control bodies as an independent trading nation, this is likely to expand over time.
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On the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, there is a legitimate query about how quickly Defra will be able to publish updates to the lists after a new decision is made. Once a change has been agreed, the process is fairly swift. It is likely to take approximately two working days, as that is the standard time for updates to GOV.UK to be put into effect, dependent on communication capacity at the time. The time taken for decisions on whether or not to make a change would vary in length based on the complexity of the change in question. For example, if a third-country control body alerts us to a change to its name or website, that can be approved quickly.
The noble Baroness made a point about how Defra would alert stakeholders that changes had been made. Stakeholders will be made aware of the changes in a timely manner by email, and any new third-country recognitions will be consulted on with stakeholders as part of the decision-making process. I add in answer to a number of points that the organic sector desperately needs this—I think noble Lords agree with that and understand it. We are not making this change in the teeth of opposition from the organic sector; it wants a simple, streamlined process.
The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and a number of other noble Lords asked about parliamentary oversight of the approval of third countries and third-country control bodies, and that point was also raised by the SLSC. We believe that, given the administrative and low-impact nature of amendments to the lists of recognised third countries and third-country control
bodies and the very detailed technical assessment required by this instrument to add a country or control body to the list, scrutiny at official level is appropriate. The recognition of a third country’s organic standards as equivalent is based on an extensive technical evaluation of the third country’s organic standards to ensure that they are comparable to the UK’s standards, and an evaluation of its enforcement mechanisms to ensure that those standards are being met in practice. The final decision will have Secretary of State oversight, and, if recognition is agreed, the third country must meet continuing obligations, including the provision of annual reports and notification of infringements or changes to standards.
It was asked why reference to EU equivalence is made until 31 December 2023 and what will happen after that date. In the EU-UK Trade and Cooperation agreement we committed to recognising the European Union as equivalent for the purposes of organics until 31 December 2023 and vice versa. This is in line with the convention for EU recognition of third countries for organics, which is limited to three years at a time. We will use the recognition provided by this SI to reflect our recognition of the EU in our official list. This SI will allow us to move our recognition of the EU on to official lists. At the end of the current recognition period, equivalence will need to be renegotiated between the UK and the EU. Our intention is that, when the current mutual recognition ends, we will seek to renew it.
On whether this SI will allow the Secretary of State to lower organic standards, the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, makes an important point. The key point of this is to maintain organic standards; that is what we need for international trade, and that is what the sector wants. The UK standards for organic production, which third countries must equal if their goods are to be recognised as equivalent and imported to the UK, are set out in retained regulations 834/2007 and 889/2008. Amendment to these regulations requires a statutory instrument, so will require parliamentary scrutiny. I think that that point answers a number of the queries made. The Secretary of State cannot simply decide to amend these standards, and it is not in our interests to lower those standards, because it would affect our ability to trade with other countries.
The standards for third-country organics recognition are set out in articles 32 and 33 of retained EU regulation 834/2007 and 1235/2008. There is detailed technical guidance on what will be required to recognise a country as equivalent—for example, carrying out a full standards comparison, reviewing a technical dossier, conducting annual reviews and carrying out audits.
On the point about the Trade and Agriculture Commission, I respectfully take a different view from the noble Baroness. Its views are not ignored; it is a relatively new body, and we want to make sure that it works. It is vital that it works for farmers and the UK economy.
I was asked why Defra cannot publish the lists on GOV.UK without taking them out of legislation. Defra could publish copies of the lists of third countries and control bodies on GOV.UK without removing them from legislation, but that would not solve the main issue, which this SI seeks to resolve. Lists published on GOV.UK would not be legally binding if they were not underpinned by the correct legislation. Port health authorities, for example, would not be able to work on the basis of
those lists when checking which organic products may be imported into this country. In such a scenario, any change would still require that a new SI be passed.
I have already touched on the question about ongoing disagreements on aspects of organic regulations and whether they are retained and devolved, but I shall be open with noble Lords. There is an ongoing disagreement between the UK Government and the devolved Administrations about whether certain aspects of implementing trade policy are devolved or reserved. That disagreement is not specific to the organic sector. The source of this dispute is over the question of what is or is not reserved. While it is agreed that trade is in general a reserved matter, there is a dispute over whether domestic enforcement of agreements is reserved. To allow the continued functioning of the organic sector, the four Administrations agreed that Defra should remain the UK competent authority and they should work together through the four nations working group. Although this issue has not been resolved, it is not affecting day-to-day operations—that is absolutely key. The process of seeking a legal resolution would be costly and time-consuming, and therefore the Administrations have not considered it necessary.
I re-emphasise that we are not doing this to the organic producers—we are doing it for them; it is a measure that they want. We are setting up an expert working group that will work with Defra officials to determine whether a third country or third-country control body has an equivalence to GB standards. Consultation will also take place within the sector, and this will be considered before the Secretary of State agrees to any recognition.
With that, I hope that I have answered your Lordships’ questions and that noble Lords share my sense of the need for this instrument to streamline the existing process for amending lists of third countries and third-country control bodies recognised as compliant and equivalent by the UK and to facilitate the trade in organics between the UK and EU. As outlined in my opening remarks, the instrument will allow for the timely extension of EU recognition until the end of 2023, as agreed in the trade and co-operation agreement, as well as avoiding any unnecessary disruptions to trade caused by inaccurate information in legislation.
I believe that I have answered all noble Lords’ questions, but I shall have to check Hansard. I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I have missed any out, and I shall reply in writing.