My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, with whom I completely agree on maintaining the status quo on the involvement of covert human intelligence sources and the ability of the police and security services to authorise these people to engage in crime. I have no argument with him on those issues. But, as the noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, said, the issue for us is the police granting immunity from prosecution or from any legal action at all.
My noble friend Lady Hamwee and I have Amendment 79, but I will take the amendments in this group in order. Amendment 75A from the noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, is intended to require the Investigatory Powers Commissioner to identify unlawful or improper conduct through a CCA to the police for investigation. I have a great deal of sympathy for what the noble Baroness is trying to achieve, but I am not sure that her amendment achieves what she sets out to.
The amendment talks about conduct that is not authorised by the criminal conduct authorisation, but we are also concerned with conduct that is unlawful or improper that is authorised by a CCA, by accident, inexperience or corrupt practice. This does not appear to be covered by the amendment. Of course, if it is the result of police malpractice, referring the matter to the police may not be enough to ensure that it is properly dealt with.
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Rather than relying on my own experience, I have spoken to experienced handlers and controllers, as the noble Minister has—although, as will become apparent, not the same ones. There is genuine concern about the potential for corrupt practice when criminals and police officers are working together, as they do for the majority of police covert human intelligence sources. I was a police officer for over 30 years and I cannot tell you the distress it causes me to say what I am about to say, but it needs to be said.
Examples are cited of criminals who have gone beyond what they have been authorised to do and, in some cases, have engaged in criminal enterprises of
their own but, because of their value to the police as a covert human intelligence source, a “text”—apparently the technical term for the brown envelope secretly handed to the presiding judge, informing the judge that the defendant is a valuable police informant—has been handed to the judge and, as a result, the defendant has been acquitted or given a nominal sentence, even when they have conducted a criminal enterprise. Some cases are likely to be covered by the noble Baroness’s amendment, but not all of them.
Amendment 75B is probing and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.
Amendment 79 in this group calls for a review of the use of covert human intelligence sources in crime. We are getting many different and contradictory narratives here. The noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, talks about agents run by MI5 being “brave men and women”. She cannot
“accept that they are people who lack civic responsibility, that they do it for the money or that they are engaged in very questionable activity.”—[Official Report, 24/11/20; col. 211.]
I know from having been briefed by the security services at GCHQ and Vauxhall Cross exactly the sorts of people that the noble Baroness is talking about. I have no doubt at all that the agents that she has experience of are exactly as she describes.
From my personal hands-on experience as a controller of police covert human intelligence sources, and from having handed over considerable sums of money to criminals who have been police informants, I tell the Committee that many police covert human intelligence sources lack civil responsibility, do it for money, and are engaged in questionable activity. I quote from an email sent to me by a former police colleague:
“From my wealth of experience of handling, actively tasking and using participating informants I can say that these people are among some of the most devious and manipulative people on the planet. Often desperate or open to manipulation by over-zealous or even corrupt officers.”
The agents run by MI5 are very different from many police informants.
The Minister, in her letter dated 3 December, says that she has
“talked to officers who train MI5 and police handlers—experienced agent handlers and controllers”,
who describe the current situation as “unsatisfactory” and that
“they have lost intelligence gathering opportunities and, on occasion, been unable to recruit CHIS, or had CHIS walk away from their role, because clear protection from prosecution had not been provided”.
I quote my former police colleague again:
“I’m always sceptical of anyone from within the discipline and who has a vested interest in promoting and enhancing their topic … The present system, with all its inherent difficulties is the only feasible way of maintaining control of a sometimes-volatile situation. As frustrating as it may be for those running covert operations of this nature … it is those of us that have experienced this world who know exactly why the current restraints are there and how they maintain control of investigations.”
In answer to my question, “How many intelligence-gathering opportunities have been lost as a result of the current system?”, the Minister says, “Police authorities do not gather statistics on intelligence opportunities lost”. In answer to my question, “How many CHIS
have been prosecuted for authorised criminal conduct?”, the Minister says, “We do not collect these statistics. I understand the numbers are low, but it is not unprecedented.” Will the Minister please provide a detailed example of where this has happened? Was it because the criminal conduct should not have been authorised, or is she relying on someone telling her, “I’ve heard of a case but I don’t know anything about it”? Or maybe the Minister will say, “The people you’re talking to are from the past and the police can be trusted now?”
Today we learn that the second largest police force in England has not recorded one in five crimes reported to it—including 25% of violent crime—and has written off crimes without proper investigation. In seven out of 10 cases of domestic violence, it recorded that the victim did not want to pursue the case, without any evidence that this had actually happened. How many of those victims went on to sustain serious harm in another assault? Was children’s safeguarding also missed in cases that were not properly investigated?
This is the Minister’s police force. The point I am trying to make here is: who do we believe? What is the problem that the Bill is trying to solve? What is the nature and extent of the problem? We have no idea, and with the greatest respect, I am sure that the Government have no idea either. We are relying on anecdote and subjective opinions because no one, not least the Government, knows the facts. Our Amendment 79 would establish the facts.