My Lords, I am pleased to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Whitaker, although I am afraid I do not take exactly the same approach as she has on this matter; in fact, I oppose the amendments. I understand that for many people they are probing amendments, and many might take a different view when the Minister has explained some of the background to them more fully.
I am reacting slightly to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. The noble Lord’s speech introducing this group of amendments might have given some people listening the impression that something very new is being launched, but with his own background and personal experience he knows that we are talking about a well-established practice—the use of covert sources—which, as we know, has been a vital source of information in the prevention of much crime and terrorism in our history. We are not introducing something new here but putting an established practice on a statutory basis and putting in place a much tougher regime for its operation, one that has to be voted on by Parliament, which of course was not the previous situation.
The issue of additional authorised bodies is spoken about as though this is some huge expansion, when it is my understanding—the Minister may be able to confirm this—that it is actually a reduction in the number of bodies that can apply to use the covert-intelligence-source approach. It is not new; each of the bodies listed has previously shown an operational requirement and has been using it in practice to some great benefit for the country. Here I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Paddick said, and which others have echoed, which is an appreciation of the Minister’s email to me—and maybe her letter to others who are more present on the scene—regarding what can be advanced as evidence of where this has been valuable to the organisations concerned.
The suggestion following on from that is that we do not really need all these bodies to be involved and that we should just give it all to the police. As I understand it, in many of these cases the introduction of a covert intelligence source in a particular area of responsibility, whether it be the Environment Agency or the Department of Health and Social Care, may often be to try to find out what is happening in the first place. That is not at a stage where you are producing masses of evidence of something that can be handed straight over to the police; it is about trying to assess whether there is some real threat or danger in these areas.
Many have cited the importance of a code of practice. I think there is general recognition that it is a pretty strong document. It is a huge improvement on what did not exist before, and it has to be voted on by Parliament, so we will have to approve its coming into operation. It will of course be binding on all parties.
The reason why I have taken part in these debates in Committee is that at present we are living in an exceptionally dangerous world. I have previously quoted the evidence from the Minister, James Brokenshire, on the amount of crime of very different sorts that one year’s covert intelligence had helped with. I see that included in that was the fact that no fewer than 27 different terrorist attacks were prevented by covert intelligence in the last three years.
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As we listen to the evidence now being given to the Manchester Arena inquiry, the thought that—according to the evidence of the head of MI5, I believe—there were 27 other terrorist attacks that would not have been prevented without covert intelligence, should make people realise the importance of some of the issues that we are dealing with.
If I have one particular sympathy, it is that I was sorry to see that some people have suggested leaving out our Armed Forces. As we sit here now, our forces are deployed in some pretty dangerous quarters of the world. They are in Afghanistan and Iraq, and they are going to the Sahel. Given the dangers that they may face in certain areas, we would not wish the way in which they could draw on intelligence to protect themselves to be in any way restricted.
The Home Office has come in for some attacks. But we should think about the challenges of mass migration, and the illegal migration into this country that it is trying to cope with. When we look at the situation in
Greece, we see how this can overwhelm countries. The importance of maintaining our defences in these areas is enormous.
I will add one brief word. I am sitting in the west country at the moment, looking at some pretty devastating scenes of what is called ash dieback, where the face of our countryside has been changed because of the import into this country of a dangerous disease. This is a constant challenge now. The role of the Environment Agency and Defra is critical in protecting our countryside and our way of life.
In my judgment this would certainly be the wrong time to lower our defences and limit still further the number of bodies that can use this important intelligence source. It is vital that, if covertly sourced intelligence exists, it exists under the tightest of rules, with strict oversight. We know that the roles of the Investigatory Powers Commissioner, the judicial commissioners and the tribunal together make up a powerful range of oversight. I support that, and would not wish to see it undermined by niggling away at it and complicating the operation of this most important area.
I will add one last thought. The Investigatory Powers Commissioner has to make an annual report to the Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister has to publish that report and lay it before Parliament. So there is continuing annual oversight of this—something that has never happened on the same scale before. That is a very important addition.