My Lords, I am speaking in support of my Amendments 172 and 173, which, in two different ways, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, seek to achieve the same as his amendment. Like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, I am a member the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee chaired by the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, and I am pleased to be so. Also a member is the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Bennachie, who spoke earlier on Amendment 4. He described it as a consensus amendment. I wondered—if
it was a consensus amendment—why he did not seek a consensus within the House on it, but I discovered why when I opened my Scotsman this morning and saw the big story, which sought to imply, I think, that the Liberal Democrats were taking credit for opposing this Bill and not wanting others to get any credit for that, but he got the support of the SNP in doing so.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, I am a long-term supporter of devolution. As some here will recall, I campaigned for it in the 1960s and 1970s, when there were few supporters of it in the Labour Party—John P Mackintosh, Donald Dewar and myself were three of the few—there were even fewer in the Tory party and none in the SNP, who wanted then, as they do now, complete separation. When people are picking up arguments in the cause of the SNP, they should never forget that.
Devolution is different from the unitary state we had. I recall well when in Westminster we were dealing with education in Scotland, which was administratively devolved. That was one of the main arguments for devolution: to have legislative control over what was administrative devolution. Devolution is also totally different from separation, but the SNP now see devolution as a means to achieve their aim, as a slippery slope to independence, and that is something we must be wary about. To the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, who spoke in a debate earlier, I say that Westminster remains ultimately sovereign in relation to all matters, although, if it oversteps the mark and tries to do something unacceptable, there must be other consequences.
As others have said, unfortunately devolution was never followed through in England, and we are left with a difficult situation, difficult most of all for the UK Government who regularly try to act on behalf of England as well as their overall responsibility for the United Kingdom. We have seen that in stark perspective in the pandemic. It does not help when the noble Lord, Lord Inglewood, describes them as the English Government. Successful devolution needs understanding and co-operation between both levels. Incidentally, as some people tend now to forget, it was envisaged originally that powers might be transferred back to Westminster if experience has shown something could be dealt with more appropriately at that level.
What I find a bit alarming is how some colleagues—those who were not in favour of devolution before—now seem to believe that the devolved Administrations are always right. It reminds me of the zeal of the convert. There is no greater critic of the Tories than me—I think the noble Lord, Lord Callahan, the Minister, will confirm that. Incidentally, they are not always wrong, but, thankfully, they are not going to be in power forever here at Westminster, so we need to have a more long-term perspective. On this transfer of powers from the European Union, the SNP describes it as a power grab and the Tories describe it as a power surge. Neither is true or helpful.
Before our regrettable withdrawal from the EU, we accepted that all these powers were better dealt with for all of the United Kingdom—Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England—at a European level because we were all part of a common market. Now, we continue to have a common market here in the
United Kingdom, so it is sensible that as many of the transferred powers as possible should be dealt with on a common basis. However, it is my view—as it was that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, and others—that this is best done by agreement through a common framework procedure and by ensuring there is, as one of my amendments says, no regression or diminution of the standards that we take back from Europe. That is what my amendments seek to achieve in different ways.
It could be, as some noble Lords have said, that all four countries have to agree or—the Minister might like to think about this—it may be appropriate to have a qualified majority, so that one Government could not block something useful by mischievous means.
Incidentally, there has been mention again today, from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, of the threat to minimum alcohol pricing in Scotland. The Minister dealt with it well. It is, therefore, useful to recall that there was a challenge to minimum alcohol pricing, but it came from within Scotland, from the Scotch Whisky Association, based on it breaking European Union law. Interestingly, the ruling was that it did not break European Union law, and it was the United Kingdom Supreme Court that made that ruling. It is important that we separate party politics, which is not easy for us party politicians, and look at what is best for consumers and the public in general. That may be that things are decided at the UK level, or by Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland separately.
We will soon need to sort out the English democratic deficit, which is real for the people in England and the regions in particular. We need to make devolution complete with a scheme for England, then the United Kingdom Parliament can properly carry out its federal role, maybe with a somewhat different role for the second Chamber.
Meanwhile I, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, hope that the common frameworks procedure sets a good co-operative working example. It is a better way than the Bill. I say to the Minister—I have not disagreed with him on everything—that it is a better way of dealing with this than the Bill in its current form, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, rightly said in his introduction. I hope the Minister will accept the general principle of these amendments, before we return to the Bill on Report. It would certainly make his life a great deal easier.