My Lords, I will not repeat some of the debate on the previous grouping, when my noble friend Lord Blencathra and I made comments on a number of issues in relation to some of the localities we have discussed today and the scale of geography that different constituencies face. I merely repeat my observation that I have a Cornish father and I was born in Devon, so I have sympathy with and understanding of the emotive issues that that division may generate.
Perhaps I may clarify one point for the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, because he was not sure about the balance between the numbers game, to use his phrase, I think, and the influence of local factors. I say this with at least two glass walls between me and the Government Whip, because she may want to hit me for pointing this out. In fact, in the legislation to which I referred, Schedule 2 says that the electorate of any constituency “shall be”, in other words the number is pre-eminent, whereas the requirement to take factors into consideration is described by “may”, as the noble Lord is indicating. Therefore, one has pre-eminence over the other.
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On the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, and others, I have over time, as have many others, sat through many, many hearings and inquiries on boundaries. However, one does not just face the question of communities, geography and history. I have listened to any number of submissions in cities such as Birmingham, London and Manchester where the issues of deprivation, non-registration and English as not the first language all come into consideration. People argue—quite reasonably, and I well understand those arguments—that the numbers should vary on their behalf, as against the geographical arguments that we are facing this afternoon.
I will just make two or three other quick observations. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, is correct up to a point, but one reason why Wales’s constituency total is as it is in comparison with Scotland is that Scotland had a Parliament introduced under the devolution legislation and therefore took a substantial hit to its previous total number of seats; Wales did not. That is why Wales has historically been—if I can use this term, and I cannot think of a better word—overrepresented in comparison with Scotland.
The valleys are a great barrier in Wales. I lived in Wales for a number of years. I was a candidate and lost my deposit in Wales—sadly, a great many years ago. There is no question but that they are a barrier. However, they should not be overemphasised in comparison with some of the other barriers that people face around the country—lochs, to which the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, referred, geography, distance and the like—because some of those valleys are linked in one local council or another. The local government reorganisation—of which year I am not certain—brought a number of those valleys together.
In conclusion, I pass comment on just one other matter that I wanted to identify. It has been suggested that MPs on the Tory side during the previous reviews did not make clear their opposition to the Devonwall constituencies. There is absolutely no doubt: they made their views known not just to the Whips in private. A number of them made comments opposing the proposal of Devonwall constituencies on the Floor of the House. It has been and remains the subject of contention, but it is not that any one particular party that has made those representations: they have come from representatives of all different parties.