My Lords, this has been another very interesting and, indeed, thought-provoking debate.
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it. I declare my farming interests as set out in the register.
I have to say that, in opening the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Curry, and my noble friend Lord Caithness demonstrated textbook brevity: they got absolutely to the point of their amendment, and I should remember that brevity myself. Clause 1(1)(b) allows us to pay for educational infrastructure to ensure our farmers have the right facilities to host farm visits and increase wider awareness among the public, and especially school pupils, about the crucial role our farmers play in maintaining our countryside and producing the food we eat.
On the word “forestry”, I agree with my noble friend Lord Caithness; as I said on Tuesday, I see “forestry” and “woodland” as coterminous. I expect that for many farmers who have woodland, part of the educational visit offered is to go from the wheat field to the barley field, to the sugar beet and to the woods—a complete package, showing what happens on so many farms. As outlined on Tuesday, Defra has a significant programme of public engagement, which incorporates the voices of young people in particular. Defra has used this input to make environmental policy more accessible to young people; as I said before, the year of green action is extremely important.
I have noted a number of points which I may not be able to answer, partly because of time but also because of the detail involved. I say to my noble friend Lady McIntosh that I very much agree with the point she made. I will speak to the DfE about the importance, as part of looking after the interests of young people, of making clear that connection with the natural world and the environment.
I am very conscious of the work that goes on in forestry. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and my noble friend Lord Caithness that Clause 1(1)(b) allows the Government to provide funding for
“supporting public access to and enjoyment of the countryside, farmland”
and “woodland”. Just as educational visits on farms are covered, so would be visits that take place partly or fully on forestry land. The noble Lord, Lord Mann, spoke of many parts of the country where woodland would be a very important feature—I agree. The National Forest is a prime example of where land that went through industrialisation has been restored and become a great educational resource and source of much broader enjoyment. Government can do only so much, but an important aspect of what happens in the countryside is the way agricultural associations, the NFU and all the farming organisations, the CLA, the agricultural colleges, Kew, the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty, the Forestry Commission and all such bodies, private and public, are engaged in public awareness and providing educational resource, as I know from personal experience.
I will get back to the noble Lord, Lord Clark, particularly on commercial transactions of Forestry Commission parcels of land. My understanding, from way back in my memory, is that very little Forestry Commission land is sold and any proceeds of sale go back into further forestry. As to any commercial
arrangements that involve access issues, I do not think that it would be reasonable for me to reply to him or the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, without a full legal analysis of the arrangements. I hope that will be acceptable to the two noble Lords.
On forestry graduates, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs—I know it is also of particular interest to my noble friend Lord Caithness—that Forestry Commission England supports the industry-led Forestry Skills Forum, which is dedicated to promoting education, skills, learning and development across the forestry sector in England and Wales. Nearly 30 forestry employers, associations and educational providers have pledged to work together to attract the very best of young and new talent into the sector. As for the number of forestry graduates, the detail I have is, I am afraid, for 2016-17, when there were about 150 graduate students in forestry. However, the headline number disguises the fact that forestry employers recruit from other disciplines that offer supplementary training.
I was very pleased that my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury highlighted that an important element of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Curry, is the importance of an appropriately skilled workforce. Agricultural and forestry technologies are transforming farming and creating new types of jobs and requirements for new kinds of skills. It is important that the industry is supported in its ability to respond to these changes.
Clause 1 has been purposely broadly drafted to allow the Government to account for existing or emerging skills gaps. Activities “connected to” any of the purposes listed in Clause 1 can already be funded, which already covers protecting the environment, mitigating against climate change, conservation, forestry and measures to improve the productivity of agricultural and forestry activities, among many others.
From my personal experience of this, I remember going with a school from Lambeth with Kate Hoey to an agricultural college. We arrived and the children were asked to run through strips of oats, wheat and barley. I was horrified, but it was a very good idea. They were asked to pick the ears and, when they came back, the question was: “What food comes from those crops?” I have to say, quite a number of children were on to it and knew. We then went into the dairy, where there were shorthorns—we used to have shorthorns in the family; they are a very good breed to manage and look after—and the children held their brushes. They were not sure, as they did not like the smell, but afterwards they really got involved in it all. So, if anyone wants to ask me, “Do you know how inspirational these visits can be to children of all backgrounds, and particularly from inner city areas?”, I am absolutely with it.
The connections we can have from encouraging the countryside and urban areas to work together are profoundly important. That relates not only to the Bill, but to what so many charities and bodies are already doing. The noble Earl, Lord Devon, the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, and my noble friends Lord Marlesford and Lord Cormack all made those points. My noble friend Lord Cormack said that this is an important point. I absolutely get the point that it is not only
important, but imperative that the next generation know more than perhaps this generation about the interconnection between farming, the environment, the production of food and everyone’s well-being.
I noted down that the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, referred to “multitasking” but, in fact, with all the tasks that the noble Lord mentioned, I then put “magician”. There is no doubt in my mind, coming as I do from a farming background, about how versatile farmers have to be. They are versatile in the first place in dealing with every weather condition, but I also have some sympathy with the paperwork that is no doubt put before farmers. That is why the whole emphasis of what we want to do is to concentrate on making this practical by working with farmers to ensure that it works for them and that it is their project, so that they do not think what on earth have this Government done to them.
I acknowledge the instrumental work of the noble Lord, Lord Curry, in the Skills Leadership Group and I express my gratitude to him. Defra officials are engaging with the Skills Leadership Group as leaders in the industry to develop plans for a proposed new professional body, which is intended to be an independent and self-funded organisation, precisely to bring forward skills in all the sectors that I have mentioned. The Government believe that this kind of industry-led initiative can be instrumental in creating clear career development pathways and promoting the sector as a progressive, professional and attractive career choice. If we are looking at the recovery from what this country is going through—a green recovery as well—these are clearly areas where we must encourage the next generation to feel that there are worthwhile careers; it is very important for the national interest.
I turn to some of the other points. I agree that Amendments 32 and 33 raise some essential topics. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lucas for raising them, but they were also echoed by the noble Lords, Lord Krebs, Lord Campbell-Savours, Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Mann. I echo the points that my noble friend Lady McIntosh and the noble Earl, Lord Devon, raised. This Bill will not be a way in which, suddenly, all the research demands of the natural world and agriculture will be found. I say that rather softly, in so far as we would look for other sources of funding across Whitehall for some of these really significant research projects. But it is important—indeed, essential—that robotics and genetics offer great potential for agriculture. Innovation and technology are key to boosting productivity while, I emphasise, enhancing the environment and feeding a growing world. I leave it to scientists such as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and others to ensure that the science is directed in a way that clearly enhances production of food in an environmentally important way. Existing legislation, such as the Science and Technology Act, already enables the Government to support research to enable the development of new technology and practices in food production.
The Government are planning to use these powers to launch an ambitious agricultural innovation research package, which will enable more farmers and agri-food businesses to become involved in agricultural research.
Having been to the laboratory at Harper Adams University, it is extraordinary what is in prospect in terms of an agricultural revolution, so that we can improve the productivity, sustainability and resilience of farming. For example, people are developing remote sensors which use artificial intelligence for the early identification of pests and diseases, so that with integrated pest management we can be much more cautious with the use of those materials.
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Additionally, Clause 1(2) allows for financial assistance to be given for the purpose of improving the productivity of agricultural, horticultural and forestry activities. This includes the provision of grants to support farmers, foresters and growers to invest in equipment and technology that improves their productivity and enhances the environment. Again, the distinction is that this is about how we can help farmers, foresters and growers use this new technology on farm, and the many ways in which that will make a big difference for the environment.
Turning to Amendments 43 and 54, the Bill provides powers which I believe address the concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett. For example, Clause 1(2) allows the Secretary of State to give financial assistance for the purpose of
“supporting ancillary activities carried on, or to be carried on, by or for a producer.”
“Ancillary activities” are defined in Clause 1(5) as
“selling, marketing, preparing, packaging, processing or distributing products deriving from an agricultural, horticultural or forestry activity.”
The Government will make productivity grants available from 2021, as described in the February 2020 policy update. These grants could help farmers invest in equipment or infrastructure, so that they can add value to existing products, create new products or make products available directly to customers. This will open up new business opportunities for farmers, as well as the chance to reduce food miles and make more food available closer to where it is produced.
On the second purpose in the noble Baroness’s amendment, concerning supply chain infrastructure, it is the Government’s position that supporting food production and ancillary activities, as the Bill already allows and the Government have done through previous RDPE schemes, will help farm businesses develop improved products and find new markets. I have seen for myself many projects where this has enabled very vibrant businesses to perform. I say in response to the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, with his very considerable experience, that one of the many pleasures of going around so many national parks is seeing the local food provenance and that that there is, in effect, great kudos to production within the national park. This is true both in national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty and, indeed, in areas that do not have that designation but are identified with the production of food.
Again, I emphasise that locally grown food is always desirable, and I and the Government will always support it. From my experience of recent months, however, having been in telephone calls, sometimes twice daily,
with the big retailers, I can assure noble Lords of the responsibility of the retailers in wishing to ensure that there is food for the nation and in the work they are undertaking and the local relationships that many supermarket branches have with their local producers. We should be cautious, when feeding the nation, of thinking that this can be sourced only from farmers’ markets, important as these are, or from locally produced food always. It will be very difficult to feed the nation in conurbations if we provide only food markets. We need a balance to have the food security that we shall go on to discuss.
I want to nip in the bud, if that is the right phrase, the concerns of the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Whitchurch and Lady Young of Old Scone, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, by saying that it is absolutely not the Government’s intention to use productivity powers to undermine environmental objectives. It is for this reason that the duty in Clause 1(4), was included in the Bill. In framing any financial assistance scheme, the Secretary of State must have regard to the need to encourage food production by producers in England in an environmentally sustainable way. This places that duty on the Secretary of State. Improving productivity is not the same as increasing production. The Government’s policies will improve productivity and support a strong food production sector, but they will also reduce farming’s environmental footprint and help with the achievement of net zero.
Turning to Amendment 61, my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond raised some very important and interesting points, as did the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I am always interested in hearing further points on this. I gently say that my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach is infamous for bulbs. Anyone who goes to Chelsea will see the many years—I think it is more than 25—of consistent gold medals for his narcissi and daffodils. The Bill allows financial assistance to be provided for the purposes of starting or improving the productivity of a horticultural activity. The use of innovative methods of production, including the use of sustainable energy, such as waste energy from other sources, is key to making this happen. Government officials are currently considering the best way to support the horticulture sector and will be working with the industry to design a replacement fruit and vegetable aid scheme which will help them increase production in a sustainable way.
I say at this point that I am very taken with one of the issues in the work of WRAP on reducing food waste: the requirement for perfect food when it is delicious to eat is an area we all need to think about much more. I think there is now better understanding from the consumer and the retailer—after all, retailers will tend to provide what they think the consumer wants. Much better education about waste and its reduction is hugely important.
Turning to Amendment 62, I agree with my noble friends Lady Rock and Lord Marlesford about diversification. Those of us who farm have all been diversifying over these last decades in certain ways. Clause 1(2)(b) allows the Government to support many diversification activities on farms. Separately from that, I shall also explain, because it is in farming, horticultural and forestry interests, the other sources from which
quite a lot of work and resource from other departments will come. The Government intend to introduce the UK shared prosperity fund to replace EU structural funds. I said on Tuesday that its design will take into account the dynamics of rural economies and the particular challenges faced by rural communities. Defra and MHCLG are engaging with rural stakeholders to support development of the evidence base around which the needs of rural communities can be properly catered for. This is another very important way in which the rural economy will be supported.
Amendment 101 was given another exemplary and speedy introduction by my noble friend Lord Dundee. Clause 1(2) already allows for financial assistance to be given for the purposes and activities included in this amendment. In the Farming for the Future policy update in February, the Government set out our plans for offering funding to councils, landowners and other organisations to help them invest in creating new opportunities for new-entrant farmers. Such funding could be used for activities including making holdings available for new entrants or to support the provision of business or mentoring guidance.
The noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, referred to the chalk stream rivers. I am very conscious of this, because they are iconic rivers for those who like to walk along them and fish in them. This is the responsibility of the Environment Agency, which I met not so long ago with my noble friend Lord Ribeiro and some fishing interests. It does monitor, and it is important that work continues to ensure that we enhance the quality of water. The noble Lord is right, of course. When I looked into this, I am afraid I found that the consequences of nitrates take many decades to emerge and then to disperse. This is a long-term issue that we will have to tackle.
The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, asked about devolution. I am obviously very pleased that Wales and Northern Ireland asked for a schedule to this legislation, which my noble friend Lady Bloomfield and I are delighted to take forward. It is devolved, but it is always important that Defra and the devolved Ministers meet regularly to discuss issues such as education and work closely to establish common UK frameworks. Collaboration on all policy matters would lead to greater fulfilment.
My noble friend Lady McIntosh asked about the policy statement and budgets. As I have said, the February 2020 policy update set out further detail on our intended reforms. As mentioned on Tuesday, the Government intend to publish in autumn further detail on the early years of the transition, including on future schemes. Farmers may enter into agreements under ELM to be paid for delivering public goods, including engagement with the natural environment. We will determine what ELM will pay for as we further develop the scheme, and are engaging with stakeholders to inform this.
As I have said, I understand that there is often a desire to put flesh on a framework, but the whole construct is for us to work with the very people who are going to make this happen. That is why the tests and trials will be absolutely vital and why I wish to resist placing narrowings and definitions when the broad drafting will enable us to come forward to your Lordships with many of the regulations in a way that is developed with the claimants in mind.
I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, will not mind, but she mentioned food, abattoirs and county farms, which will all be the subject of discussion on later groups. I hope she will not think it discourteous, but it would be more helpful to everyone if we were to raise those then. I think her name is on the speaking list for some of those debates. We will pick up the points she raised in the ministerial reply on those groups.
I am aware that there will be some questions that I have not attended to, either because of time or because a note might not have reached me quite in time to make sure I got the fullest explanation or help. These have been very important discussions on education, skills, local food and innovation and more besides. I will rest on what the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, said about the extraordinary range of requirements. We look to the farmer in providing all that he or she does. It is therefore important to work on these schemes and on the education; we started with education on this group. Perhaps everyone in this country ought to receive a copy of the noble Lord’s extract on what we expect of the farmer.
With that in mind and with this debate, the reassurances and the further letter I will follow up with for any outstanding points, I very much hope that my noble friend Lord Caithness and in turn the noble Lord, Lord Curry, will feel able to withdraw their amendments.